Ep. 357 The Power of Yet: Reclaiming Hope (repost)

Terry [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Giving Voice to Depression podcast, brought to you by Recovery.com, a free online resource created to make it easier to find addiction and mental health treatment and resources. Each week we profile a guest here who shares intimate details of their mental health journey. They share because they understand that when people don't talk about their depression or other mental health conditions, those of us who struggle with them can feel like we're the only ones, that there is something wrong with us, and that no one understands. We understand. I'm Terry, the creator and co-host of this podcast. You have my promise that we'll keep it real here. Depression is real and we're not going to sugarcoat our discussions about it. Hope is also real and you'll get a dose of that here, too. Thanks for joining us. This episode was originally produced with sponsorship from the A.B. Korkor Foundation for Mental Health. We record a couple of new interviews each month and also replay some of our best ones from the archive so that newer listeners don't miss out on those. This episode is from when Dr. Anita Sanz was co-hosting. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:01:18] Hi, Terry. 

Terry [00:01:19] Hello, Anita. So if you're a regular listener, then you know that we are big fans of quotes that help reinforce our guests' lessons. And today, the one that comes to mind is from author James Baldwin. [00:01:32]"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be change until it is faced."

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:01:39] Last week, we introduced you to Lori. In the time between that interview and this one, she took steps to face her depression in new ways. To look, as she calls it, into the basement, to discover and uncover the things that have been driving her feelings of depression and low self-worth. It's difficult work and it's ongoing work which Lori says is allowing her to understand and reframe some of the factors that have long contributed to her chronic depression. And that is allowing some light and hope into her mind and life for the first time in a very long time. So here again is Lori, giving her voice to depression. 

Terry [00:02:30] For nearly a decade, Lori has lived stuck in a place she describes as about halfway out of depression's pit. 

Lori [00:02:38] The black dark pit that when you're in a really bad depressive episode you're at the bottom and you can't even see up to the pit to see that there's any blue sky or sunshine. And, where I'd gotten was part way up to that point where you're kind of like, okay, hey, I'm not feeling great but I'm not way down there anymore. Like, I can function. You can see that there's blue sky and sunshine up there but you can't really access it from where you are. And then that's just where I stopped. It never got any better than that. So I just, I just resigned to like, well, this is me. For whatever reason, I can't ... um .. I just can't do life well. So ... 

Terry [00:03:26] And that choice of words, "I can't do life well," it sounds like you thought it was a failing on your part. 

Lori [00:03:34] Yeah. So... I was to the point where my counselor was saying, maybe it's time for you to try another program — another something to, you know, plug into, to go to, to maybe see if something more intensive would help in some way. And I'd done those before, so I wasn't thrilled about it, but I was like, okay. 

Terry [00:04:00] Lori says she found a place that looked a little different, and after working with her therapist and insurance company, she signed up for a three-week program at the treatment center. Lori says that one of the most important things for her there was meeting and getting to know other people who also live with persistent depression. 

Lori [00:04:20] I didn't know anybody at all like me that just lived with that all-the-time depression. So that really fed my brain even further with the thinking that it was just me, you know, like something is wrong with me, that I just can't, I just can't do this and stuff. So one of the things in going there is that I did meet other people that lived how I was.

Terry [00:04:50] What's the ... what's the difference in knowing that, that you're not the only one? 

Lori [00:04:57] It maybe just took a little bit of the burden off of me just thinking that it was just me. You know, like, okay, there are other people in the world that live with this every single day and, you know, they're very, very wonderful people. 

Terry [00:05:19] So then you had the opportunity to be exposed to a number of different tools — some new, some you'd already used and tried — and ... and what? 

Lori [00:05:30] It did make a difference for me. It did. You know, I'm not like magically cured, but I didn't think that I would feel kind of the way I am right now ever again. 

Terry [00:05:44] That bears repeating. Lori says she didn't think she would ever again feel the way she feels right now. In fact, here's how she described hope in our original conversation. 

Lori [00:05:57] You know, a lot of times with depression, we talk about hope and feeling, and those are absolutely important, but I don't have a lot of that. It's been like this for over eight years and we've tried all sorts of different things, tried different, you know, meds, tried this, tried this. And so you just have this sense of, I guess I just am going to stay broken. 

Terry [00:06:23] We share that because we know some of you listening have also lost hope. You may believe you have tried everything, and that because nothing has helped, nothing will. And we know it's hard to hear that something might change when your depression is telling you that you will always feel the way you do right now, but something might. 

Lori [00:06:44] I always wanted somebody to fix me. I'm like, why can't somebody fix me? Why can't meds fix me, why can't a counselor? Why can't I be fixed? And they said, you don't need to be fixed because you're not broken. You're not broken ... You're a wonderful, beautiful human being. And they would say, you're just stuck. So you have it in you to just try something different. So was ... I felt a little cynical at first, you know, but I felt like a little shift. You know, they weren't talking about like, oh, your life is gonna change and you're gonna make this 180 degree turn in your life. But can you ... can you be open to making a small, just a small shift, a really small one? 

Terry [00:07:32] Lori says one small shift suggested in the program is not sitting in your past. 

Lori [00:07:39] Meaning ... Your past is very important to you, you know, things that have happened and stuff in order to say, this is how I got here. But then they were like, so now what? How do you get through the rest of your life, you know? So it was like a shift in thinking. Say the path I was on before, the journey I was walking, the path I was on, it just led to the same place. It just, you know, no matter what I tried, I kept ... tried meds, changing meds ... going, you know, whatever — I kept on that same path and it just gave me what it always gave me which was the resigned feeling of depression and failure. (Yeah.) So they said, what if you're willing to shift your, your thinking and your feeling like one degree — not like 180, like one-degree — and maybe take some steps on that path. And are you willing to try that? Because if, if you can do that, just take one step, two steps, but then maybe take another one and stuff. Just that small shift is gonna change where you are headed. 

Terry [00:08:43] Think of an airplane, Laurie says. The slightest change in its course will bring it to an entirely different destination. 

Lori [00:08:52] So just like one degree or, hell, even a half a degree or whatever. So it's not ... and it's not about an end point. I mean, it's not trying to get somewhere. It's the journey, right? And that gave me, like, some hope. Like, OK, and if this isn't quite right, maybe I can make another shift. You can make little shifts all along the way. But if I change my autopilot, at least I know I'm not on that old path, going to the same place it's always gone. And that made sense to me. It made sense me. You know, it's not ... it's not easy, at all. I still have lots of challenges. I think I ... I think I'll always have depression in my life, but it's just the small changes and continuing to take another step each day, just one day at a time, one day at a time. 

Terry [00:09:44] What's the difference having hope for the first time in a really long time? 

Lori [00:09:51] So when I first felt that, it wasn't like "Oh my gosh, I have hope!" It was tiny. It was like a pinprick in the darkness. It was kind of like, it piqued my interest. Hmm ... you know? And so it just kind of like spurred me to be more open. I mean, I was, that was, I like, okay, I'm just gonna be open. I'll try anything. I will try anything, pretty much, you know, to not have to live this way. 

Terry [00:10:24] The way Lori has come to explain how she was living is in a box, and those pinpricks that let in some light were tiny holes in that confinement. 

Lori [00:10:35] And for me, what was driving it was a lot of shame and just having kind of like the core belief of having to earn my worth. That's a gross simplification. Obviously this took a lot of time and a lot of ... so I can't explain it in just a few words. (Oh yeah.) But, you know, people I just didn't want to let anybody down. So I was severely critical of myself for anything that did not feed that need to get my worth. And so, you know, I was really critical of myself for being what I thought was a failure. You know, it led me to always taking care of things for other people because, you know, they asked me to. And so I'm like, well, I don't wanna say no. I gotta, you know ... Again, this is an oversimplification, but you know what it kind of made me realize is that all of this led me to like where I was living is in this box. 

Terry [00:11:33] Laurie says while in the treatment center, a provider would say something or she'd have an experience or realization and ... 

Lori [00:11:40] And kind of going, wow, and sitting with it, you know, just sitting with it and feeling it and pressing on it, kind of like pressing on that wound, you know. It was really hard, it was really painful, but it also started to ... or kind of see the light of day and somehow kind of allowed it to kind of loosen its grasp on me and maybe kind of break up the clouds, you know, like the depression's lies that were clouding my brain and my heart. 

Terry [00:12:11] One paradigm shift Laurie experienced was around what's sometimes called contingent self-worth. The idea that our value is earned via our productivity, income, weight, selflessness, or some other external factors. While the flaw in that logic may be obvious to people who were raised to have a healthy sense of self — or who managed to learn it themselves — for all the rest of us, it could be game-changing. 

Lori [00:12:37] It felt like for the first time I realized, and somebody said this there, that my worth is a set point. It's a set point. It's not changeable. It seems simple, but I say that to myself every day to remind myself that. 

Terry [00:12:53] ... which brings us back to the importance of those tiny course corrections Laurie spoke of earlier. 

Lori [00:12:59] They said, so what is the most important step to take in your path? And they said, the next one. And it's true because this is not just an overnight thing. I mean, it's like, it took a lot of years — my whole lifetime! — to get to where I was. So I can't just say I'm spinning on a dime and everything's different now. But I made a little shift and I'm not on the path that I was. 

Terry [00:13:26] Hmm. One thing that is working for Lori, who is as big a fan of metaphors as we are, is the idea of being a screen door person versus a backpack person. 

Lori [00:13:38] ... meaning that there are those of us that go through life and I was a huge backpack person, huge. And everything that happened to us, things that happen to other people, we put it in our backpack and carry it. And it just gets so heavy. And especially after a while, it just gets so heavy that even the smaller things that happened, they would absolutely just spiral me out downward. because it was just so heavy and it was carrying it. 

Terry [00:14:06] ... versus being a screen door person ...

Lori [00:14:09] Meaning we're like the screen door on our house. So you're kind of letting life move through you. I don't need to cling to it. I don't need to judge it. I don't need to hold on to it, I don't need to carry it. 

Terry [00:14:22] We can't end today's episode without referring to the gut punch from last week's interview. Lori saying that she went to bed each night, dreading the morning, when she knew she would wake, wishing she hadn't. Here's Lori's take on that today. 

Lori [00:14:37] I didn't come home going, "I'm cured!" or, you know, "Oh my gosh, I am so better!" or I ... you know, all these momentous changes. It wasn't that. I still just have a terrible time trying to get myself out of bed But, but —I  like I don't go to bed at night, fearing having to wake up the next morning. I don t wake up the next morning feeling severely disappointed because I wish I hadn't. So I do think I'm like slowly, you know, slowly doing better. And I'm not in any rush to like get better or be happy, you know, but I'm just noticing a lot more contentment in my days and that's a welcome change for me. And it's, it's enough for now. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:15:32] So Terry, there's so much awesomeness here and her analogies I think are just great. You know, the screen door, those pinpricks of light, the airplane charting just one degree differently ... I just ... all of those are so spot on. And I think as I was listening to this, the thing I loved the most was what she was learning in the treatment program when they told her that you don't need to be fixed because you're not broken. (Yes.) You're just stuck. (Yes.) You know, I love that. I just start thinking about, you know, what do we do if anything is stuck? What do you do when you've got a ring stuck on your finger and you can't get it out? What do do if your car's tire is stuck in mud on the road? What do when anything is stuck? ... So that you can get unstuck so that you don't do more damage trying to get something unstuck. You work it, you work it: slowly, gently, consistently. And when that's not working, walk away. Right. If you walk away swearing and then walk back, then you come back. Maybe you bring help, you bring somebody else, you bring something else, you keep working it. And that consistently, like, I'm not going to give up. I'm just gonna keep doing this. Those little steps that we always keep talking about that are so infuriatingly slow, but that's the way out. And I love that whole concept of, you're not broken, you're just stuck. And then, okay, now we gotta deal with stuck. And how do we do that? And I think we've all been there. 

Terry [00:17:09] But stuck isn't permanent, and broken can feel like it is. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:17:12] Yeah, broken's got horrible connotations. Damaged. Forever. You know, it's so much more negative. Now, stuck is not fun. Stuck is not a fun experience, but stuck to me can at least implies what? More temporary, more like, I can get unstuck. There's stuck and unstuck, but then there's broken and ... 

Terry [00:17:34] Repaired, but never unbroken. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:17:36] That's right. So I just, I like stuck and then we'll get unstuck. (Yeah). And then again, I just think that process of getting unstuck makes sense to us, that it's gonna take time. We need to be gentle. Got to practice things that we don't like sometimes like patience and asking for help and bringing in the cavalry sometimes. But, you know, she was willing, you know, and try this treatment program after years of nothing really seeming to move the needle at all and was really pleasantly surprised. And I love that she was willing to give something else a chance. 

Terry [00:18:12] ... and was committed to being open-minded while she was there because, you know, there are gonna be things that you would expect. You know, there's gonna be some meditation, some group therapy — maybe those kinds of things — but there may also be gourd painting. And it'd be real easy to be like, oh, hell no. You know? I'm not painting a gourd, you know, but the act of doing that, you know, there was something about that experience that just shifted something in her mind. And I think that that was one of my takeaways from talking to Lori because I was like, Oh, I really do have to be, you know, more open-minded about that whole long list of things that just might help ... I've interviewed dozens of people who've said it helps them, why would it not, you know, have at least a chance of helping me? So I think that being open-minded and taking ... I don't want to say responsibility cause it sounds like you're being irresponsible if you don't, but being willing to take some action yourself as opposed to wanting, as Laurie said, someone to fix you, something to fix you. (Mhm. Mhm.) And in comparison to last week, which we talked about being a difficult episode because she was in a really hopeless place and hopeless is — talk about stuck! It's a dangerous place to be stuck. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:19:24] Yes it is. To feel like stuck with no hope as opposed to temporarily stuck and we're still working it, we're still trying, we're still, you know ... we're still waiting for the thing that will get get us unstuck. 

Terry [00:19:36] Haven't found it yet, that great word yet. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:19:39] Yet, yet. 

Terry [00:19:40] The power of that, I haven't found what gets me unstuck yet. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:19:44] Exactly, exactly. And sometimes the same thing that you tried five years ago that didn't get you unstuck might work this time. It's just really interesting to see what will work for each person at different stages of their life, at different times with different episodes of depression. So I always just say, you never say never. You don't try to predict things. Stay open-minded as much as you possibly can. Even when you feel like you have all of the evidence us to show that you've tried hasn't worked ... so then you want to make the prediction that nothing is going to work and you want to reject that last part and just say, never say never, let's give it another try. 

Terry [00:20:26] Cause we're worth it. I mean, you know, that sounds like a bumper sticker, but it's really true. (Mhm.) And it's really hard when you're in it because, you know, of course every message you're getting is "Nothing will change and you're not worth it," but that's the lie. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:20:40] That is it, depression lies. I just wanna say thank you again for Lori for spending so much time and being willing to share her story with us. 

Terry [00:20:49] ... and so many of the things she learned, because whether we have the opportunity to go to a treatment facility or not, it probably wouldn't be that one. And so it's nice that we got to benefit from her experience. We truly hope this discussion helps you better understand your own depression or how to support someone else in your life who lives with it. We invite you to check out the hundreds of other episodes in our archive and to explore both the resource hub and treatment options on recovery.com. Depression is too dark a road to walk alone. We'll be back next week.