Terry: Hello and welcome to the Giving Voice to Depression podcast, brought to you by Recovery.com. Each week we profile a guest who shares intimate details of their mental health journey. They share because they understand that when people don't talk about their depression or other mental health conditions, those of us who struggle with them can feel like we're the only ones that there's something wrong with us, instead of understanding that we have a common and treatable illness, I'm Terry, the creator and co-host of this podcast. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: And I'm Doctor Anita Sanz, a licensed clinical psychologist with more than 25 years in clinical practice. I know from both personal and professional experience how significantly mental health and other disorders can impact not just our lives, but those around us as well. By speaking openly and with the wisdom of lived experience, we help normalize conversations that are often avoided due to shame or stigma. Our episodes are honest and real, and we keep them hopeful because there truly is hope. Despite what depression tells you. 

Terry: This podcast is brought to you by Recovery.com, whose mission is to help each person find the best path to recovery through a comprehensive, helpful network of treatment providers for both mental health and addiction treatment worldwide. Hi, Anita. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Hi, Terry. 

Terry: So we obviously focus primarily on depression in this podcast, but that's not to say it's a standalone condition. Depression is by definition part of a bipolar disorder diagnosis. It also often co occurs with PTSD, anxiety, personality, eating and substance-use disorders as well as many "physical" illnesses. Today's guest is a living example of what can be a stew of mental health diagnoses. Johnny Crowder, who some of you may know as the vocalist for the metal bands Dark Sermon and Prison. While others may be more familiar with another side of him as a gifted mental health advocate. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: If his name is new to you, you might want to also listen to last week's episode, "When Your Life Explodes." In it, Johnny shared that his 2024 ended with a series of closely-timed blows, including having his home destroyed by a hurricane, getting dumped (those are his words) by the woman he thought he was going to marry, and having two of his four band members move on, all leaving his carefully constructed future in destruction. So today, we continue our conversation and broaden the scope to explore some of the many ways that Johnny has both learned and created to manage mental health. Here again, is Johnny Crowder giving his voice to depression. 

Terry: Johnny earned a degree in psychology, in part to better understand himself and his many diagnoses. 

Johnny Crowder: The list of diagnoses that I recall. I'd be interested to see which one's my clinicians. Back then, when think are accurate now with like how the DSM has changed, you know. I'm just curious. But the the diagnoses that I recall are definitely depression and anxiety were like through the fricking roof. I was hallucinating a lot in my teens and 20s-- so pretty severe schizophrenia. So auditory and visual hallucinations were pervasive. Lots of delusions. And II think the anxiety and depression sort of took a bipolar body. So I would experience mania where I'd be hyper productive and very high energy and then deep depression and these, these seasons wouldn't just be brief. Like, it's so funny how people misunderstand bipolar. They think, oh, he's hot one minute and he's cold the next. That was not me. That was not my experience. It was like maybe weeks, days, weeks, potentially even months of like mania and then days, weeks or months of depression. So they were very long and dramatic swings and not these like turn-on-a-dime type switches. 

Terry: When you have a number and I understand that you don't even necessarily believe/relate/take on some of these diagnoses now. But when you have a number of them, is there like a ranking within you? Is it like the anxiety's worst or the depression's worse? Or I hate the OCD or whatever it is? 

Johnny Crowder: Oh yes, I, I'm glad that you brought up OCD. That's so fun(ny). See, this is what I mean. Like, I don't even think about OCD in my daily life most of the time, which is crazy. Because for tons of my life it ruled my life. OCD was definitely one of my most severe, and I think for me, it felt like it didn't feel very delineated. Like, oh, I am experiencing.. especially back then, I didn't think like I am experiencing anxiety. Or I am experiencing OCD. It was sort of like everything kind of touched each other. Like for example, when I was anxious, I would have more OCD thoughts and behaviors because I was like in that sort of heightened mental and emotional state. I was sort of already bothered. So it made my defenses against those thoughts and behaviors lower. 

Terry: But on balance, Johnny says of all those conditions, he considers depression to be the most debilitating. 

Johnny Crowder: I mean, depression made it so that I didn't even want to fight against the other stuff. Depression made me think, why go to treatment? Because it's not going to make a difference. You know, and talk about debilitating. It's like, what the heck? If you don't even have the hope that you can be eligible to live a higher quality of life, then that inhibits you trying, which then perpetuates the symptoms that you're fighting against. It's like I would say that that was a huge issue. And then the the schizophrenia at the time made it very difficult to connect with other people, the schizophrenia and the anxiety. So it was like sometimes difficult to make eye contact or to speak in complete sentences. The OCD made it so I didn't want to touch anybody. So I think the social isolation from just those three then made me more depressed because I wasn't spending time in community. So like everything kind of.. It was very incestuous. 

Terry: When you talk about depression's thoughts, I just think if we just talked about the thoughts, people would understand depression so much more than they do now, because it's really easy when we use the word "depressed" as an adjective. You know,' I was so depressed because it rained when I wanted to go to the ball game' I mean, we just use it. And so we think we know what it means. How do you, from your own experience now, how would you explain the debilitating nature of depression to somebody who has never had it? 

Johnny Crowder: I'll actually steal a metaphor that my friend Kristen used. Years ago. I've never forgotten it. She said, you know the Staple's Easy Button? (Yes.) Like, you press it and it's like that was easy. She said if there was a button, like an easy button that could fix my whole life, that could heal all of my relationships, that could, you know, someone would swoop down and give me $1 billion and the love of my life and like a white picket fence and just give me everything I wanted for the rest of my life and would solve every problem I have. And you put that button on my nightstand, it wouldn't make a difference if I was too depressed to roll over and press the button. (Oh) So depression is like this thing that keeps you from the solution. That's what makes it so debilitating. 

Terry: That is so well-put. Depression is the thing that keeps you from the solution. All the things that we know will help us climb out sooner or not slide in as deeply, all seem futile when we're really in it. Everything does. 

Johnny Crowder: You might as well just lay around at home. And it's like that that blocker to every every hope or dream or vision that you have gets a little grayer and a little grayer. And when I notice it in my life is, like I said, when I, when I go to turn to something that normally brings me joy and it doesn't. Like, it feels like I'm sort of seeing everything in black and white, like gray. Everything's just gray and drab. These things that I used to see in color. And it changes my relationship with other people, my relationship with my work, my relationship with my passions. 

Johnny Crowder: And I think people say that sadness is depression. But I would say like I've been sad before and not depressed. Yeah. For me, depression is this sense of like pervasive melancholy, but like avsort of I don't even matter. What difference does it make if I'm here or not here? If I try this thing or don't try this thing? It's like this universal ambivalence like this blah that touches all of these things and then affects how I interact with them, with which then affects the outcomes. 

Terry: Yes. Yes. For me, the nothingness is so much worse than mad. Mad or sad, you know, because those I can feel, those I can kind of, you know, get my, I don't know, get a grip on or something and know what they are. But to feel nothing. Nothing. 

Johnny Crowder: Yeah. And, and when I was experiencing those challenges last year and my friend who's a pastor was like, what's, what's what are you really mourning like what is just the thing that's eating you up? And I was like, dude, it's it's not necessarily about the relationship or the home or my band or any of it. It's. 

Johnny Crowder: It's more about feeling like I've lost my hope and my vision for the future. Like, I used to have these things that fired me up. And now that I've lost these things, I feel like I've lost my like my luster. Like that spring in my step is gone. And I actually have this tiny little belief somewhere in me that says, you're never going to get it back, Johnny. 

Johnny Crowder: All those things that brought you joy in those relationships and those opportunities and those comforts, they're gone. And there's nothing you can do about it. So don't even bother trying. You can waste your time reading all the books and listening to all the podcast and doing all the therapy sessions, but you've got to accept that it's never coming back. And that is such an easy voice to listen to when you've lost everything else. It's like so easy to buy into the idea that things will always be this way. 

Terry: Things will always be the way they are now. So what's the point of trying? We'd bet the vast majority of you listening have had that very thought, likely playing on a loop when you're depressed. Does it help at all to hear that Johnny does too? That it's a symptom and not a truth. 

Terry: To remind himself of that when he's stuck, Johnny recommends talking to someone who's known you for a while. Someone who has perspective and can offer you evidence that you can survive this. He elaborated on that in last week's episode. If you didn't hear it yet. 

Johnny Crowder: And that's why seeking evidence outside of that interaction is so important. You say, hey, somebody who's not experiencing the same sadness, have you ever seen me go through something that's hard and then eventually come out of it? You need proof to sort of argue with that voice that says you won't come out of it. You need to be able to tell it: No,, I'm pretty sure I will. I understand that it'll take some time, but this is not my first rodeo. 

Terry: If you don't have access to someone that you would trust with that reflection, we've had other guests recommend that some time when you're feeling better, write down some of the good, strong, positive, and true things about yourself so that you can read it later when you're having trouble remembering them. It can make depression's lies less convincing. 

Johnny Crowder: I think the real lie is to say that what you're going through isn't tough. That's where you almost start gaslighting yourself. So this was like a fascinating conversation that I had with my therapist. He asked me, who would you have to be for this not to affect you? 

Terry: Oh. 

Johnny Crowder: And I was thinking, I wracked my brain for like, 30s. I'm like, I don't know. Like a monk or like this sort of super enlightened being or whatever. And then I was like a sociopath? And he was like, yes, (whoa) you would have to be a literal sociopath. Like, completely checked out. 

Johnny Crowder: Johnny, your home got destroyed in a storm. Your 15 year music career is dramatically changing and is completely outside of control. And you got broken up with by the love of your life. Like, any one of these things could really throw a person. But all three in the same moment? And. 

Johnny Crowder: You're telling me you don't want to be sad? Johnny, I would be very scared for you if this wasn't rocking you. If you're like, yeah, man, life changes and you roll with the punches and this ain't bad. He's like, you have to acknowledge that this is brutal. Like you are experiencing huge dramatic life changes. And when he told me that, I was like, okay, so it makes sense that this is hard for me. It would be weird if it wasn't hard for me. 

Terry: When you think back on your worst depressive episodes, were things in your life going really well? Or were you too going through some brutal things that would rock anyone's world and psyche? It may be a question worth asking, as we all work to better understand ourselves and our depression. 

Terry: Beyond that, Johnny has learned to ask himself if others have experienced something similar to the pain he's going through. 

Johnny Crowder: So I'm trying to remember not only can I overcome hard things, but for generations, billions of people have faced, aybe not this exact specific circumstance, but this challenge or a similar challenge and all of them-- some way less resilient than me-- some with way weaker of a support system than me, you know, have been able to survive this and recover. And I'm like, okay, if all of those billions of people could also recover from this and build a life worth living in the wake of it, then who am I to think that I am so uniquely special that I'm the only one who's not equipped to do it? 

Terry: Johnny also pulls from the teachings of Eckhart Tolle to help him challenge and reframe his thoughts in difficult times. Tolle, a spiritual teacher and self-help author who also struggled with depression, anxiety and feeling disconnected from life, teaches that we can change the narrative in our heads by recognizing it as thoughts and not facts. Tolle says that allows us to be aware of, but not trapped or controlled by our thoughts. 

Johnny Crowder: I heard this Eckhart Tolle video where someone asks what to do when you get upset. And he said, all I do is when my brain tells me I'm upset, I tell my brain I don't mind. And then he's like, and then my brain doesn't know what to do with that information. It's like, well, what the heck? Are you supposed to get sad or mad or frustrated? Or aren't you supposed to get stressed out? And Eckhart is like, no, I mean, of course, of course I'm upset. So I was trying to do that with myself. And then it's unbelievable Terry, how, like within 15 seconds of thinking, that's okay. And then it's like this, I don't know how to explain it. And it's not like the first time I tried it, it magically worked. 

Johnny Crowder: But the more that I tell myself the same way that I would respond to a friend, like if you told me I lost my home in a storm and I'm sad, I wouldn't think. Terry, it's been two and a half months to get over it. I'd think like of course. Yes. Of course you're sad. I completely understand that. And I'm great at showing other people empathy. Yeah, I all too often neglect to offer myself that same compassion. And this has been the ultimate test of can I walk the walk of what I do for other people towards myself? 

Terry: In addition to dark, repetitive thoughts, Johnny says, like all of us, he has many tells when his depression descends. Knowing our own can give us an early warning that we need to get started doing the things and accessing the resources that we know have helped us manage in the past. 

Johnny Crowder: So I think with depression, for me, my 'my tells' are definitely if I'm actively avoiding people I like or love. So for example, someone texts me and then I'll, I'll leave the text unread for like days. And it's like, why am I avoiding this person? I love talking to them. Of course I want to go see them and they're inviting me to go do something. I don't know why. It's not a conscious avoidable. It's like an unconscious decision to postpone indefinitely. So just, like procrastinate getting back to people, that's one. And another is if I am not interested in things that normally interest me. Yeah, it's that nothing feeling that you mentioned. 

Terry: Two things that normally captivate Johnny are cars and the engineering of watches. Monitoring his interest in them helps him see both ends of his depressive episodes. 

Johnny Crowder: My sister asked how I was doing and I said, I think I'm feeling better because I've been watching videos about cars and watches again. And those were things that I used to love to do before this happened. And that's telling me that I'm sort of I'm getting my feet underneath me again. So I think It's not only should you be able to recognize things that are tipping you off, that you're going to potentially go down that depression pathway. But you should also keep an eye out for signs that you're making progress, because that's so encouraging. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: So Terry, let's talk about not being able to press an easy button to stop depression. (Oh right? ) Yeah. (Right.)

Dr. Anita Sanz: I mean, that was such a, I think, a creative way to try to get across exactly the impact that depression can have on you, to the point where even if it was that easy, which we know it isn't, but even if it was that easy and all you had to do was press the button, there would be many days that you couldn't even do it. Yeah. 

Terry: Right. Wouldn't see the point. Yeah. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: That's that's the power of depression. So what would a beautiful way to help people understand, especially, again, if people are giving well-intentioned and well-meaning recommendations to do things like go take a walk, go do yoga, all of that. Not that those couldn't be helpful at some point. But yeah, when you're laying in bed--can't get out, on the couch-- can't get off, and you couldn't even press the easy button, you definitely couldn't do those other things at that moment either. 

Terry: Right. It's that concept that Johnny stated that depression made him not even want to fight against it. And the phrasing he used that depression perpetuates the symptoms that you're trying to fight against or would need to fight against reminds me of another guest, Doctor Duff, who said describes depression as a parasite and that it does anything it needs to do and will take anything from you, its host, that it needs to feed itself and deplete you. And I think it's the same sort of concept. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Yeah. And like I think it was our past guest, Davey, who was saying, you're trying to fix something broken with something that's broken. 

Terry: Yeah. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Yeah. It's just that same concept of the thing that you have is also the thing that's going to prevent you from getting rid of it. (Ugh) It's just awful. (That's nasty.) It is really nasty. 

Terry: The thing you have is exactly what's going to prevent you from doing what you have to do to get rid of it. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Yeah. It's diabolical. Right? 

Terry: It is. Yes. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Yeah. Yeah. We we do restate that in so many different ways. Yeah. 

Terry: I really appreciated his therapist's question: "Who would you have to be to not be affected by all those things going on in your life?" And I'm really starting personally to connect the times my depressions were the worst, with the times that my life was the worst. And wondering, you know, if I need to pay more attention to when my life is getting rocky that my mental health is likely to follow. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Absolutely. Because we know that there are those biological and neurochemical influences on the brain. So if we're living through something like what Johnny was, or a lot of people do, where there's such extended high stress, you know, then the brain is sitting in that body that's got all these stress hormones in it on an ongoing basis. And so you're absolutely right. Making sure that you've got that sort of let's try to preempt or be proactive about increasing what I need to do to find joy and peace and calm my nervous system down is so important in times of really high stress. It doesn't mean that you necessarily have, or that you should ever feel you have control over, you know, preventing an increase of symptoms. But there is something about doing something that depression doesn't kind of like. And if we keep neurons kind of firing and we keep looking for what is going right and, and, and trying to find the peace and the joy in whatever moments we can, we are kind of actively resisting letting that complete overwhelm of our nervous system from stress hormones. And so it is something that, you know, all, all hope is not lost, even when everything feels like it's crashing, because you can still just double down on taking care of you. And, and that could have cumulative positive benefits and might even be enough to kind of stave off, you know, an increase in symptoms or a relapse or something. 

Terry: And let's talk a bit about questioning those thoughts and challenging those thoughts, as well as a method of perhaps protecting ourselves. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Yeah. Yeah. Because one of the things that Johnny said I thought was was really brilliant, and he got it also from a very brilliant person, Eckhart Tolle, who said that you know, when he gets upset he just tells his brain, I don't mind. And this is something that in therapy, we we talk about as like, pull out the meh response, you know, the whatever response. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: And it's tricky because we keep telling people who are trying to get better from things that they need to actively, actively do things to fight depression. We're always saying, you got to, you gotta do what you can, right? But even though it might look like this is not doing something, this is still doing something to have a response to whatever your symptoms are. If you wake up and you have pain, or you have fatigue or anxiety or depressive symptoms to almost any feeling that is overwhelming, if you can sort of just say, I don't mind your being here, like,. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: I'm going to acknowledge that you're here. I'm not going to deny it. And, you know, fight, fight, fight to not feel the way that you're obviously feeling, and you give it permission to be there for as long as it's going to be. Meaning, you remove yourself from feeling like I have to try to get rid of this thing, because that can feel like a losing battle. And you can say, you know, now, my preference is that you not be there. I would I would rather not feel this way. I would rather not have this symptom package this morning. But if you can accept it and not actively try to get rid of it, you save some energy that I think would be wasted. Again, we cannot magically get rid of things that we don't like. We just can't do it. And there's that old saying, what we resist persists. So what we resist persists. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: So if we can just let it be, we don't have to be happy about it. We don't have to like it. But if we can just say, look, literally, it's okay to not be okay right now. I can I can stay in that space. That allows you to use the energy that you do have given whatever symptoms you're dealing with, to maybe put that energy into something that could actually maybe help a little bit that day, instead of wasting that energy fighting the fact that it's back or oh man, I thought I was getting a hold on this. And it's worse today, you know. 

Terry: So can you help me understand the difference and how it would feel and, you know, sort of the forward motion of it, the difference between accepting it and surrendering to it. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Yeah. Accepting it is just an acknowledgment of reality and and just saying this is what it is. I might not like it. I might wish it was completely different. But it is what it is. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Surrendering means I give up all my power. I have no influence. I have nothing that I can do here. And and it could feel a little akin to a hopelessness state, to just say, well, you're back, so I'm doomed. You know, just throw up your hands. I'm doomed. I might as well just cancel everything. Curl up in a ball. I'm done. And accepting doesn't do that at all. Saying I don't mind that you're here. I have a day. I'm gonna, you know, still try to do the things that I wanted to do today. And maybe I do that with some sadness. Maybe I do that with the little bit of hopelessness that is that can creep in at times. Maybe I do that with these symptoms. Maybe I do it with some extra fatigue. But it's not surrendering. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Accepting is not surrendering. Accepting is just saying, okay, this is what I have to deal with and I might not like it. And you would be kind of you'd be ridiculous for you to like, yeah, any of these things that limit us and make us feel terrible. So you don't have to like it, but accepting it is not surrendering. Accepting it now hopefully should give you that ability to say, okay, you're here. What can I do about this? Then we move into that act of coping, which is maybe I do clear my schedule, if that's what would be good. Or maybe we add in those things that, again, remind us that it's not all hopeless and call that friend or book that extra session with your therapist or whatever it is that you're like. I accept that this is happening. And so these would be good things for me to do now. That's that's the opposite of surrendering to me. Yeah. 

Terry: Thanks for that clarification. Because as I listened to you, I was thinking that in addition to depression, you know, my Achilles heel is my back. And when I accept that, I'm like, right on the edge of of it going out, I have to change my behaviors. You know, I have to stretch or walk or put heat on it or whatever I have to do. So that is not me surrendering to it. It is, as you say it's the opposite. It's me saying, oh no, you don't. You know, I'm I'm not sure exactly. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Yeah. It's like I can feel. It's I can feel it's going to go out. So what can it what could I do? What could I possibly do now? So it's an empowering thing. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: And it can feel really strange when you say, okay, you need to rest or you need to not do, you need to to take things off of your plate. It can feel very much like, no, I don't want to give things up. I don't want that. But if it would actually be much better for you and you're getting all of those little signs and symptoms saying you ought to do that and then you making the decision I'm going to do that is empowering. Feeling like I have to. I don't have any choice. You do. You do have choice. You could push through it and then pay the consequences. Right? 

Terry: Right, right. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Yeah. So you do have a choice. And any time we feel like we have a choice, that's an antidepressant. 

Terry: Great word. And in the same way that we're talking about recognizing our early warning signs is what I call them, johnny made the great point at the end of the interview that we also have to keep our awareness attuned for the the lightning of the fog, for the return of some hope that when you start to actually, in his case, enjoy going on YouTube and looking up the things he likes. And I know we hear lots of people talking about cat videos and things that you were like, you are kidding me. That helps? But whatever, whatever. Whatever is healthy helps. Yeah, absolutely. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Exactly. 

Terry: So I appreciate that. And of course, Johnny, greatly appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. And I love when I am speaking with someone and say, hey, can we talk about what you've been going through before we get into the depression and you say "literally anything." it was just such a nice way to start a conversation. So thanks. Okay. We are also going to link with this episode to Johnny's website, Johnny crowder.com J-o-h-n-n-y. And there you can learn about Cope Notes, which is a science based service he offers that sends you each day a text that can help disrupt any negative thoughts you're having. Really interesting. Worth learning about . And we will also link to his Ted Talks. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: We truly hope that our podcast brings a little more understanding, helps you better articulate and reflect on your own experience with depression, or better understand how to support someone else who is struggling. 

Terry: If this episode has been of comfort or value to you, know that there are hundreds of others like it in our archive, which you can easily find at our website. Giving voice to depression.com. And remember, if you're struggling, speak up. Even if it's hard, if someone else is struggling. Take the time to listen. To.