Ep. 347: Making Family Life Work With a Depressed Partner- TRANSCRIPTION

Terry: Hello and welcome to the Giving Voice to Depression podcast brought to you by Recovery.com. Each week we profile a guest who shares intimate details of their mental health journey. They share because they understand that when people don't talk about their depression or other mental health conditions, those of us who struggle with them can feel like we're the only ones, that there's something wrong with us, instead of understanding that we have a common and treatable illness. I'm Terry, the creator and co-host of this podcast. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: And I'm Dr. Anita Sanz a licensed clinical psychologist with more than 25 years in clinical practice. I know from both personal and professional experience how significantly mental health and other disorders can impact not just our lives, but those around us as well. By speaking openly and with the wisdom of lived experience, we help normalize conversations that are often avoided due to shame or stigma. Our episodes are honest and real, and we keep them hopeful because there truly is hope, despite what depression tells you. 

Terry: This podcast is brought to you by Recovery.com, whose mission is to help each person find the best path to recovery through a comprehensive, helpful network of treatment providers for both mental health and addiction treatment worldwide. This episode was originally produced with sponsorship from the AB Korkor Foundation for Mental Health. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: We recorded a couple of new interviews each month and we also replay some older ones so that our newer listeners don't miss out on some of our best ones. 

Terry: Hello, Anita. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Hi, Terry. While no one is playing a key support role for a loved one with depression or another mental health condition for the glory, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be nice once in a while to have someone acknowledge that it can be really, really hard and lonely and challenging. 

Terry: According to the Anxiety and Depression Association of America: "Being a caregiver, whether by profession or a desire or duty to care for family and friends can be extremely rewarding. Not to mention admirable. But it is physically and mentally exhausting and can take a toll on one's emotional well-being. If you are a caregiver, you probably often put others needs before your own. Sacrificing your own time, energy and physical and emotional needs can be draining. Most caregivers will feel overwhelmed, stressed, anxious, and probably even sad at some point. But if those feelings get to a stage where they affect your quality of life and you have difficulty functioning day to day, it's time to seek care for yourself. "

Dr. Anita Sanz: This episode is in reply to last week's guest, Margaret. If you listened, you may remember that for more than 20 years she's been with her husband, who has been diagnosed with treatment-resistant depression and also anxiety, as well as challenges with executive functioning. Margaret recorded a message on our website giving voice to depression.com, saying that she'd love to hear an episode with someone who sounds like her, someone who could help her navigate the often difficult and lonely waters of feeling disconnected in a marriage with someone with depression. And that's what this podcast is all about the power of shared stories of lived experiences that let us all know that others struggle in similar ways, that there are things that we may not have tried yet or not tried recently that could help a bit. And that hearing someone talk without shame about their life and experiences makes it feel at least a little more possible to safely do the same. 

Terry: To find someone who has navigated a path similar enough to Margaret and many others, we reached out to Families for Depression Awareness-- the only national nonprofit organization that advances suicide prevention by focusing on mood disorder caregivers. And they connected us with Gwen, who will directly address some of the questions Margaret posed last week, as well as give her voice to depression. 

Terry: Let's start with what you're willing to tell me about your life, your family, your husband. 

Gwen: Okay, that sounds great. So my husband and I have been married for 23 years. He has lived with severe depression his whole adult life, starting back when he was in high school. I knew he had depression before we got married. But I had no experience with that myself. And we have two teenagers now. We also have two dogs. And we have, you know, kind of ridden the roller coaster of depression during the time that we've been together. There have been times where he has been completely typical, able to do everything that any any husband would be able to do. And then there have been other times where he has been very seriously clinically depressed. And, you know, we've kind of had the ups and downs with that over the years. And just to let the audience know, our both of our kids have also had episodes of depression in their lives as well. So it's kind of a big part of my life has been supporting my whole family, my whole household. 

Terry: That sounds hard. 

Gwen: It is hard. And it's interesting listening to, you know, the other folks calling in and talking about their experiences. When you're having a good patch, you could almost forget how hard it can be in those moments, especially with with small kids when you feel like you're kind of carrying the weight of the household on your shoulders. And I think it can be very isolating when you're around people who don't have that going on, and who seem to have limitless energy and very active, engaged social families. It can feel like you're kind of left out in the cold and that you're missing out on a lot when you're dealing with a time when your family can't your husband can't go out and do those things that you would like to do. 

Terry: So let's talk about those times. What do you do to keep things going? 

Gwen: You know, I think, one of the things I had to do was separate my vision of what I thought my married life would be like to what it actually was and recognize, you know, the fun and the joy and the good things that happened might look different than what I envisioned they would, but they could still be great. We can still take vacations. We still have great times as a family. But my life maybe doesn't look like I thought it would. Exactly. And so part of it was kind of mourning and getting past that expectation I had had in my head of how it would be. And then I think the thing that I have held on to over the years that's been really helpful and that I still do now when we go through these patches is I know it will get better again. And so this is not a forever thing. This is a right now thing. 

Terry: Gwen also hangs on to the fact that depression is an illness her husband lives with, not a choice he makes. But she, like Margaret last week, says there are choices to be made about how to respond to and treat depression, including knowing and tuning into our early warning signs and knowing when we need to tap into the tools that help us manage the illness. And when we don't seem to be making the effort to do that,. It can be really discouraging and frustrating for those who care for us. 

Gwen: And that's when I kind of will lose my (yeah) cool. And sometimes I need to lose my cool because if I don't then nothing might happen. So that has happened a couple of times where I have just kind of said, you need to do this, or like we're going to be in a really tough spot. Like, you have to you have to at least call the therapist or you have to set up an appointment with the psychiatrist or you have whatever you need to get some kind of treatment. 

Terry: Gwen says she's learned over the years with both her husband and children that even when they're in depression, she needs to be really clear about what behaviors she will and will not accept. 

Gwen: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I spend some time building up some boundaries around like protection around myself so that if I have someone speaking to me in a way that is like really hurtful, I will stand my ground and say, you may be depressed, but I am not okay being spoken to that way. I recognize that you are having a hard time, but that's the line. Like you just crossed it. And I've done that with my son, who's a teenager as well. And I don't get into how it makes me feel or how like any of the big.. because they're not in a place where that. 

Terry: You're right. 

Gwen: They're in pain, like they're not in a place, but it's kind of like there's just a line. You're not going to hit me, you're not going to push me. You're not going to speak incredibly disrespectfully to me. You're not going to scream at me. Everyone in my house knows that is not allowed in this house, ever. I'm not going to let you rain on my parade like I have to have a happy life. I'm working really hard to do the best I can. 

Terry: Part of that hard work is being mindful of how our own mental and overall health are being affected by those around us. Gwen describes it as taking steps to not be sucked into the vortex. 

Gwen: It's like they're on a roller coaster and I'm standing in the little house where the roller coaster stops, where you get off and on. And I can like, wave at them when they go by and I can talk to them and encourage them. But I am not getting on the roller coaster with them. I refuse. And that has been it's kind of a funny little picture that I have kept in my head all these years where I just look at them and I'm like, You are over there. You are in that. I am not going to get sucked into that. I cannot get sucked into that. So I think it's like a talent for compartmentalizing a little bit. I can't live in all the emotion with them because otherwise I just can't function. It sounds a little cold to people who don't understand what it's like to live in this kind of environment. 

Terry: ... And to someone who does 

Gwen: But for people who have lived with somebody, they're like, that makes perfect sense. 

Terry: Margaret is one of those people. She posed several specific questions and challenges in last week's episode, which Gwen compassionately offered to address. One of the questions that just kept coming up was how do you partner and co-parent with somebody who pushes you away? 

Gwen: We have actually found, like family therapists or couples therapists really helpful with some of that kind of thing, because I think it can just be very emotionally loaded. And if someone is pushing you away and doesn't want to talk now, granted, that same person might say, there's no way I'm going to go to a couples therapist or a family therapist. But family therapists will sometimes see the whole family together, and I think that can bring someone into it because the kids are involved. They don't want to be not present. And everyone will be on their best behavior. So that can be one way. I think the other thing is sometimes you just have to have the really uncomfortable conversation with the person who's mad at you or who doesn't want to talk to you. And you can say, here's the list of stuff that has to get done in a given week. We either have to pay for it, I have to do it, or you have to do it. And I can't do all of it. So what do you suggest? You know what would work for you? What do you think we should do? And like, put it a little bit of it back on them. 

Terry: One example of that is the expectation that Gwen and her husband will manage some of the domestic responsibilities together. 

Gwen: I've push for things like we have a night where we sit down and we sit at the computer and we pay bills together. And it might be some weeks that I do it all and he just sits here with me. But it makes me feel better that I'm not doing it alone. And he is aware of where things are and what's happening. We sit together for 15 minutes on usually Saturday or Sunday and plan, try to think about what are we going to eat for dinner this week? So that we can have a shopping list and we can have a plan our meals out. And it sounds. It sounds like a small thing, but, like, he has to sit, and we decide. And then this week, we even decided, like, I'm going to cook this night. You're going to cook this night. 

Terry: Gwen says those kinds of shared activities benefit them both. 

Gwen: You know, even when you're depressed, like the the recent research says that starting an activity is the best way to kind of get through an activity. Like if you sit and wait until you feel ready to do something, you will never feel ready. And even like with fatigue that you get from cancer treatment or something like that, they'll tell you the best cure for fatigue is to actually start to do a little something. And so I, I don't take no for an answer with some of that stuff. Like you just have to feel like I'm tired too. I am notdepressed, but I'm exhausted. So, like, we're both exhausted. So should we just have eggs and toast for dinner or do we like, what do we want to do here? Because we got to figure something out. And so trying to have a little humor around it and just find opportunities to do a little like forecasting of the week. Like, here's the schedule, here's who's driving who. We have a shared Google calendar. The whole family's everything is on the same calendar and we can all see it, including the kids. And so the driving, the kids, the and even if there are weeks where my husband isn't able to do as much, he sees everything. I'm doing better because it's all on the same calendar. 

Terry: Interesting. 

Gwen: It helps. And then I can sometimes say, Hey, yeah, I need you to do this appointment with our daughter or whatever. And I'm always amazed how he's able to find the energy to do stuff with the kids when it's really necessary. So I think part of it is sometimes it can be an easy out. It's it is easier to just opt out of everything. 

Terry: Yeah. Object at rest stays at rest, right? Yeah. 

Gwen: Yeah. But if you if you push, they can usually do more than they even realize they can do. You know, it depends. I know every situation is different. But I found if it was something with the kids that he enjoyed doing, it was, you know, he could, he could manage it. 

Terry: So so we talked about tools a little earlier, and that was something that really came up with Margaret that, you know, they they go to individual counseling, they go to couples counseling. And in those situations and others, you learn things that work. They tend to work better before you're really in it. But when he her husband is in it, I'll just say he doesn't access those tools. Now, whether that's because he can't or won't, you know, who knows? But if you could just sort of address that, maybe it's the same things we've been talking about. 

Gwen: You know, there's this idea in psychology of stages of change, which is about people can only be ready for what they're ready for at that point. And no amount of pushing from the other person can get them to move to the next step. So it can affect things like, you know, willingness to get treatment or their accepting that they're there again. Like that's a big one in our house, likenot wanting to admit that we're back there again. So I think you can only just put it out there and try to, you know, say what you're feeling and how it's affecting you and how it's affecting the family, the whole family, and hope that they start to see it as well and and take action. I also am kind of a nudger, a gentle nudger. So, hey, I'm taking the dogs for a walk. Why don't you come with me? You know, I like I will go in and rattle my hangers around in the closet when I feel like he's sleeping in too late and I know he's going to throw out the schedule, like, without being passive aggressive about it. Like, you can do quite a bit to nudge people to kind of do some things that are going to help them. But it's tough. If they really are not ready to be helped, then no amount of helping is going to probably change things drastically. And it can be hard to be patient. 

Terry: My gosh, Yes. This was an interesting thing. In the last episode, Margaret talked about that recently her husband had had, I think it was a cold. And she knew what her role was. She brought him tea. She brought him supplements. He received it. He wanted to feel better. He wanted her involved in his care. And she said it was lovely. Like she really liked that experience and that connection and that familiarity of better times. I suspect. When he's depressed, that dynamic changes. So how do you take care of/care for/support somebody if they shut down, isolate and are not wanting to connect. 

Gwen: That's a really tough one. Yeah. And it is true like it's different than a typical illness. You know, I think some of the things can be the same things. I think I would probably start by asking the question and maybe even sharing that example. Like I felt like I was helpful to you when you had a cold and I was able to do these things for you. What are the things that would be most helpful with your depression? Because I view that as an illness too. So, like what could I do to be helpful to you when you're feeling, you know, a bigger episode of depression or you're feeling more depressed? And I would see what they would say. 

Terry: Another lesson Gwen has learned over the decades of sharing her home and life with people who share theirs with depression is that sometimes the very best thing you can do for them is something for yourself. 

Gwen: You know, you get to a point where both of you are so depleted. Neither of you has a full--you both have an empty cup. And you're like, take care of me. Yes. And neither of you has anything left to give. So we've definitely hit that point many, many times in our marriage. And I just, you know, I just take care of myself as much as I can. So, like, I get up in the morning now and I, I sit and have my coffee in the morning and I read a chapter of a book and I just don't do anything else. And I get up early enough that I can do that before I have to do all the morning stuff with everybody. I put myself to bed early like I, I just go to bed early and like shut the door. And I do watch my show on Netflix and I do whatever paint my nails, whatever I want to do. And I just, like, let whatever happens out there happen, and I'm not involved. 

Gwen: I will say, you know, to encourage people for us has gotten better and easier and we communicate more and we use the tools more and everything as time has gone on. But it you know, it's taken a lot of therapy and a lot of work for him to get there and a lot of treatment. So but there is hope that it will get better. I think it can definitely get better. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: There was just so much good information in here. And it's obvious that, you know, she is put into living practice, you know, all of these things that she's recommending. I love the nudging, you know, gentle, persistent nudging of the person with depression. And in a what I kept thinking about listening to her was how she's basically got that Wellness Recovery Action Plan (WRAP) kind of for herself as well as for her partner. In a sense, it's almost like the couple has the Wellness Recovery Action plan and and then she works it, which is just amazing. 

Terry: Yeah. Having those things agreed upon. Then when she is able to say, Hey, you might not notice this yet, but I'm seeing your early warning signs, that it's been agreed upon. She says that. He accepts that to the best of both of their abilities. And that just makes so much sense because otherwise someone walks in the room, slams the door, you're sitting there with the kids and dinner and practices and whatever your life entails and you've got no plan. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: And and really, what I love is that this preserves the relationship and doesn't allow depression to call the shots, you know, so that we've got this we've got this plan about what will I do? What will you do? What will we do? What kind of self-care will I need to move into now that I'm, you know, going to be a caretaker for a certain amount of time? And doing that just kind of doesn't allow, like you said, depression to sort of decide what's going to happen here. Like I'm going to I'm going to dictate this person's behaviors and their moods, and it's already taking over so much control. This protects not just the person with depression, the caretaker's mental health, the family's mental health, and in a sense, the marriage as well. So I'm I just I love what she's talking about here. It's all good stuff. 

Terry: It is. And it's so the talking about it is the key here, right? Because especially, you know, maybe I shouldn't say especially, but you know, when a partner maybe is asking you to keep this quiet, you know, this is private. This is my business. This is family business, those kinds of things. Well, you know, then you're on your own. And so as as those things are happening there are affecting everybody else in the house. And if you can't have a plan and if you can't talk about it and that was Margaret's situation in the first podcast. And when you're alone, it's so much harder because being alone is hard when you're doing something really difficult and then you're doing something really difficult. So I love that Gwen is just saying this is what it's like. This is what we do. This is what might work for you. You know, take what you want and leave the rest. 

Dr. Anita Sanz: Absolutely. We truly hope that our podcast brings a little more understanding, helped you better articulate and reflect on your own experience with depression, or better understand how to support someone else who is struggling. 

Terry: If this episode has been of comfort or value to you know that there are hundreds of others like it in our archive, which you can easily find at our website. Giving voice to depression.com. And remember if you are struggling, speak up. Even if it's hard if someone else is struggling, take the time to listen.