Ep. 345 A Parent's Valid Frustration With the System-Transcription

Terry [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Giving Voice to Depression podcast brought to you by Recovery.com. Each week we profile a guest who shares intimate details of their mental health journey. They share because they understand that when people don't talk about their depression or other mental health conditions, those of us who struggle with them can feel like we're the only ones, that there's something wrong with us, instead of understanding that we have a common and treatable illness. I'm Terry, the creator and co-host of this podcast. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:00:32] And I'm Dr. Anita Sanz, a licensed clinical psychologist with more than 25 years in clinical practice. I know from both personal and professional experience how significantly mental health and other disorders can impact not just our lives, but those around us as well. By speaking openly and with the wisdom of lived experience, we help normalize conversations that are often avoided due to shame or stigma. Our episodes are honest and real, and we keep them hopeful because there truly is hope despite what depression tells you. 

Terry [00:01:07] This podcast is brought to you by Recovery.com, whose mission is to help each person find the best path to recovery through a comprehensive, helpful network of treatment providers for both mental health and addiction treatment worldwide. Hello, Anita. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:01:27] Hi, Terry. Last week we introduced you to Chris Coulter, a father who, after losing his teenage daughter Maddy by suicide, has devoted himself to educating other families, parents, teens, and schools about the importance of shining light into the darkness of mental illness and learning to have conversations on the topic regardless of whether or not it's comfortable. 

Terry [00:01:52] In today's episode, we continue our conversation with Chris. After nearly a decade of what he now calls playing nicely on the sidelines, Chris has decided it's time to change strategies and for his voice to get louder. His prime targets for challenge and change are schools, which he has concluded have an indifference to students mental health and parents who he says need to step up and learn how to better support their children. From his lived experience and research, he offers some do's and don'ts that could really help parents achieve that goal. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:02:27] So here again is Chris Coulter giving his voice to depression. 

Terry [00:02:39] Since his daughter's death, Chris has used his experience and voice to break the silence about the prevalence and experience of depression and other mental health disorders and their connection to suicide risk. 

Chris Coulter [00:02:53] We're already looking at 60% of teenage girls who have severe depressive episodes. Extended depressive episodes in boys are around the 30% mark. But that is a whack of kids. We always hear 1 in 5. That number has been tossed around for years now, but in actuality, the numbers are so much more significant. And because I'm getting louder, because I'm getting more adamant about change needing to happen, I think the parents are picking up on my tone and the urgency in which I in which I speak of because there's so much.. I won't call it indifference, but I'll call it ignorance. So many parents don't think anything like this can happen to their kids. It just happens to other people. And then guess what? All of a sudden their child has an episode or runs away or whatever the circumstances are. And then I get the call. 

Terry [00:03:53] Chris's front row seat to the issue has convinced him that society's response to the threats comes far too late. The focus, he says, needs to be on prevention. 

Chris Coulter [00:04:06] Because our prevention dollars can go ten times further than any remediation dollars can go. And we always hear from the governments that, well, our mental health dollars are exhausted. Yeah, well, if we stopped dealing with the the knee jerk reaction to all this and we started to put some of this proactive measures in place, you'd see a definitive decline as far as the number of incidents that people are actually dealing with. 

Terry [00:04:38] What are some examples of measures that would have made a difference to your daughter and to other people like her who are in school and are struggling with depression and other mental health challenges? 

Chris Coulter [00:04:52] Well, I think first and foremost, kids need to understand their emotions. It's very complex. And not only emotions, but grief. Grief is something that is seldom talked about. And I'm not talking about just the loss of someone you love. It could be grieving from moving schools or moving houses or changing hockey teams. Whatever that person feels a sense of loss, as parents in a call it, a an emotionally-intelligent- lacking society, a lot of parents aren't equipped to have those conversations with their kids. 

Terry [00:05:33] To be truly available to and supportive of our children, we need to understand and be willing to acknowledge our own feelings and emotions too. Chris says timing is also key. It makes no more sense to wait until someone is in a mental health crisis to learn what we can do to keep them safe than it is to wait until our house is on fire before heading to the hardware store to buy an extinguisher. 

Chris Coulter [00:05:57] The first thing to happen when you're when your kid's in crisis, what happens? You're  combing the Internet, you're watching reading books, your YouTube channels, you name it. It's like, I got to get smart really quickly. Well, the way to get smart is when your kid before your kid becomes challenged and struggling emotionally. 

Chris Coulter [00:06:21] A lot of parents, what they need to do is they need to put themselves in their kid's shoes. And if their kid is learning about their emotions and I'm told that, guess what, there's a greater success rate if I have a higher level of emotional intelligence, then even if I have an IQ and it's a soft skill or I'll call it an essential skill, meaning I can learn it, then I would be all over that. I think parents have to be a little bit more proactive as it relates to their kids and their emotional and emotional development. 

Terry [00:07:00] Do you think that an unfortunate truth is that you understand that because you've lost a child and you maybe wouldn't have before then? 

Chris Coulter [00:07:10] Yeah. And that's why I'm out there crying from the rooftops about don't be naive. Don't think this can't happen to you because it can. I was the exact same way. And just even learning about how to talk to your child when they're struggling. And as parents, there's nothing we wouldn't do for our kids. But at the same time. It is really difficult for us as parents to just sit and listen. And not try to fix constantly. You got a problem? I'm going to look after that for you. I'm going to jump in and I'm going to make everything all right for you. Well, it doesn't work that way. 

Terry [00:07:52] Research proves that the act of listening, being a trusted person to whom someone feels safe  sharing their experiences and feelings in and of itself provides tremendous relief. Offering empathy is another key. Saying that sounds really hard, or I think anyone going through what you're going through would feel something similar or whatever affirming and supportive words come naturally, can keep the connection and the conversation, sometimes even the person going. Another valuable lesson Chris learned and shares is the need to recognize and celebrate small wins. 

Chris Coulter [00:08:30] We as a society, we talk about being goal oriented. We have these aspirations as far as where we want to get to. Often those goals, there are some idealistic future state. They are distant, so unattainable it doesn't make you feel really good. It makes you feel kind of frustrated, a little deflated. But if you look at where you are now compared to where you started, you can see the exponential growth and exponential wins that that you've achieved. We don't focus on those wins. And I think by measuring backwards, it affords us the luxury of building our confidence, building our victories, building and celebrating what we've achieved. And I think that is so important for parents. Those little insights in celebrating and acknowledging them are so important to kids. 

Terry [00:09:34] A third parental pointer from Chris is the need to understand the difference between sadness and depression. 

Chris Coulter [00:09:41] Yeah, I think we all have sad days. Yeah, it doesn't matter who you are. I think that it's a natural emotion. If your favorite sports team loses, or if you break up with your your girlfriend or boyfriend, sadness is something that is it's a part of life and it's something that I think we all have to accept it to some extent. It's prolonged and extended bouts of sadness where someone can't pull themselves out of it-- that's when they need help. 

Terry [00:10:17] Chris says pre-crisis help requires patience. While we may want to rush in and force a conversation to find a fix, it's often more helpful to take a different approach. 

Chris Coulter [00:10:30] I just kind of sit them, sit on the edge of their bed and just say, do you mind if I sit here? And sometimes I kind of lie back on their bed with them and and just let the silence take over and eventually they start to talk. Let them control the conversation, control the narrative. And all you do is you sit back and you  listen. And if they ask your opinion, and sometimes they will, you kind of have a conversation about it, not tell them about it. 

Terry [00:11:05] I liked how you kept writing that when your daughter wasn't ready to talk or willing to talk at a particular time, that you respected that and said, when you are, I'm here. 

Chris Coulter [00:11:18] Yeah, I think I think you have to, right? And you can't be overly transactiona. I find with kids. When kids realize that if I'm doing something because I want something, that's transactional.  Or the parent is capable of doing the exact same thing under different circumstances, and they've got to be they got to be respectful. And those boundaries, yeah, they'll  come down. But trust is something that it's earned, right? And there's a lot of reparation that sometimes needs to be done with the relationship between parents and kids. And that doesn't come easily. 

Terry [00:12:05] We often use the term toolbox on this podcast, and I think it's a good thing to point out that you not only have to develop them, but sometimes you need to sort of step through what's in that and say, What have you done before that you know has worked? 

Chris Coulter [00:12:20] Yeah. And I think self-belief is and really is really important. And if we're too busy fixing all these problems, how are the kids going to ever figure it out on their own? I think it's fine to assist them and help them arrive at their own conclusions. But I think it's really it's no different from educational learning and adult learning. We retain so much more when we do things ourself. And once we figure something else out ourself in a practical sense, you know what? We're we're going to be able to kind of navigate a lot better for future occurrences. And not only that, but it creates belief in oneself. Hey, you know what, I fixed this before. I can do this again. 

Terry [00:13:03] How hard, how bittersweet is it to come to this level of understanding and wisdom after the loss? 

Chris Coulter [00:13:14] That's it. I often say I wish I had my skill set now. Yeah, but a lot a lot of the skills that I acquired were as a result of my troubles and struggles with Maddie. And you, you dig deep when your child is in harm's way. 

Terry [00:13:35] While Chris's vulnerability, empathy and care are on full display in his advocacy work, as we mentioned at the beginning of this episode, his frustration is now too. 

Chris Coulter [00:13:46] I'm pissed off. You know what? I tried to be congenial. I tried to be cordial. You know what? Nice people don't get heard. And I think there's an effective way to communicate. The other aspect is there's a big rallying cry amongst parents. They are frustrated because they don't know how to address it with their own kids. Not that for a second do I put all the blame on schools, Because you know what? It's too complex an issue. Parents have to own, they have to own their crap. too. 

Terry [00:14:23] Chris's plan is to put public pressure on schools in Canada to have transparency and accountability for the mental health programs they offer versus what he calls the complacency they now display. 

Chris Coulter [00:14:37] I want to measure the mental health facilities' resources for every single high school. And I don't want a self assessment. I want the kids to do the measuring. And so now we're we're on this path to get kids to grade their school mental health programs. Parents believe what they hear from the schools. But now what they need to do is they need to start listening to their kids. And so what we hope to be able to do is we want to raise the threshold. We want to raise the benchmark of acceptability for mental health programs for kids in schools. And I'd love nothing more if schools get scored a D. I want them to say, you know what, our call to action is to improve this. We'll give them an audit and we'll say, this is what your kids said. And here are some resources available to you to be able to improve your score. So I think those who do a decent job right now will embrace it. 

Terry [00:15:46] So if the kids if the students themselves rate, for instance, their school that you said a D, why would the school change? 

Chris Coulter [00:15:54] I think because of public backlash. Because, so that the two corporate partners one's market research. Another is a media company. It's got national distribution and is part of a big media network across Canada and throughout the world. So putting a little public pressure, yeah, is going to force people to be accountable. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:16:25]  Terry, my thoughts again on everything that Chris has said is that, you know, we are ignorant until we become educated. And we've heard a version of that phrase that, you know, when we know better,  we should do better. And and I think if we don't try to do better once we know better, then that's likely a choice, right? So I really do feel that Chris's frustrations with the school system and to some extent with parents, it's valid. Because we know that emotional intelligence and mental health support are critical for young people to be able to do well. And then in some circumstances, when there are mental health issues, it's not just important to do well, it's for them to survive. Right. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:17:11] And so if that's the case, if we know that this is so important, why I'm with Chris, why is there so little interest or funding that we set aside for mental health support in the schools? Why is the mental health support generally the first thing you know that gets axed if there's some other initiative or testing that has to be done? That's where kids are spending so much time. And we really have the ability, if we want to, to give them that emotional intelligence toolbox, you know, all of the tools that are in that toolbox that could help them. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:17:44] I just also really love Chris's idea when it comes to schools in particular of having students rate the schools. I think that's that makes so much sense. Because if if they're doing their own ratings, I get that, and I and I think that that's important. But, you know, we kind of want to know what is it like to be a kid or a teenager in that school? Are they getting the emotional intelligence curricula? Are they getting the mental health support? How is bullying being dealt with? And to be able to get a school rating from the kids who are actually going there every day, even if the schools have, you know, issues or questions about how valid it is, it could spark a discussion. It could at least say, well, this is what you're providing, this is what the kids are saying, that they're getting. What's happening there,  you know, if there's a mismatch, what's going on? 

Terry [00:18:37] And I think about emotional intelligence or understanding our feelings and our emotions and what's going on as an adult and as a mother. I can think of the many ways that to this day I would benefit from having had an education younger. I think of situations that happened in my youth and in my adulthood that if I actually understood what I was feeling other than just bad, that I would have been a better able to to handle them and pivot or deal with it or avoid it or whatever. So I do see the real life value of having those skills. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:19:17] Yes. Same for me. And I think one of the things he said that was really critically important was that there's a difference between sadness and grief. And again, we know as a culture, you know, we're very uneducated about how to grieve and what what would actually cause grief and what that looks like and how you manage that. And wouldn't it be wonderful if, you know, kids were getting that education and that chance to practice it because kids experience so many losses and transitions that create grief and they don't have the language, they don't have the words for it. And yeah, so so I completely agree with you. It's been my personal and my professional experience that if we had the language, if we had the toolkit for managing emotions, even if parents didn't have it yet, we still could have exposure for kids to know that and to learn that. I've watched parents learn that from their kids. So so it can be that ripple that that goes out in so many different directions. But yeah, schools would be the place that I would love to see that happen. Maybe we just need a more emotionally-intelligent society in general to be able to see the value of that. But I would love for us to be able to get that message out. And for the people who like Chris, who agree this is really needed, we could save lives, we could improve relationships, we could help kids manage stress and transition and grief and all kinds of, you know, Big T and little T traumatic situations if they had those skill sets. 

Terry [00:20:50] 100%. Thank you, Chris, for sharing some of your story with us and some of the many, many really hard learned lessons that you have come across so that other families can learn. And I hope that somebody listening is involved with schools and can take this challenge and try to also maybe rate some of the schools in the U.S. where we're based. So I'd love to see some progress on that front. 

Dr. Anita Sanz [00:21:22] We truly hope that our podcast brings a little more understanding, helps you better articulate and reflect on your own experience with depression, or better understand how to support someone else who is struggling. 

Terry [00:21:35] If this episode has been of comfort or value to you know that there are hundreds of others like it in our archive, which you can easily find at our website. Giving voice to depression.com. And remember if you are struggling, speak up. Even if it's hard if someone else is struggling, take the time to listen.