NEW_344-Understanding a Family Tragedy TRANSCRIPT

Terry [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Giving Voice to Depression podcast brought to you by Recovery.com. Each week we profile a guest who shares intimate details of their mental health journey. They share because they understand that when people don't talk about their depression or other mental health conditions, those of us who struggle with them can feel like we're the only ones, that there's something wrong with us. Instead of understanding that we have a common and treatable illness. I'm Terry, the creator and co-host of this podcast. 

Dr. Sanz [00:00:32] And I'm Dr. Anita Sanz, a licensed clinical psychologist with more than 25 years in clinical practice. I know from both personal and professional experience how significantly mental health and other disorders can impact not just our lives, but those around us as well. By speaking openly and with the wisdom of lived experience, we help normalize conversations that are often avoided due to shame or stigma. Our episodes are honest and real, and we keep them hopeful because there truly is hope despite what depression tells you. 

Terry [00:01:07] This podcast is brought to you by Recovery.com, whose mission is to help each person find the best path to recovery through a comprehensive, helpful network of treatment providers for both mental health and addiction treatment worldwide. Hello, Anita. 

Dr. Sanz [00:01:26] Hi, Terry. You know, statistics are a tricky thing. When accurate, they can provide very much needed perspective. We can learn, for instance, that according to a recent report from the World Health Organization; globally 1 in 7 of 10 to 19 year olds experiences a mental disorder, and that suicide is the third leading cause of death among those aged 15 to 29 years old. But a broad picture does not help us realize that each individual in that summary is someone's mother, father, son, daughter, sister, brother, friend, classmate, coworker, relative or neighbor. We can bypass those important and alarming numbers the same way that we don't truly process or internalize the national debt or the number of cells in the human body because the magnitude is almost incomprehensible. 

Terry [00:02:26] Today, we're going to zoom in from considering 1 in 7 10-to-19 year olds to considering one, 14-year-old Maddie and her father, Chris. Because what's personal is universal and their story is deeply personal. Here is Chris Coulter giving his voice to depression. 

Chris Coulter [00:02:55] Okay. Well, a little about my daughter, Maddie. She was my eldest. She is my eldest child. First girl of many, many boys. Was really, really, really smart. Wicked sense of humor. I wouldn't say she was like a life of the party, but she certainly was uh, she was pretty gregarious. And she didn't fall into that conforming with the the mean girls type of thing. She always stood up to bullies. She  really supported the underdog. She was she was really, really kind. And you know what? It makes me incredibly proud of of just how she lived the short life that she was here. 

Terry [00:03:50] Maddie's life was cut short at just 14 years old. She died by suicide. 

Terry [00:03:56] At what point did you realize that she was struggling or experiencing depression? And how was that obvious to you? 

Chris Coulter [00:04:03] She had struggled in school where she had never struggled in school before. And sometimes you just don't know whether it's. The trials and tribulations of being a teenager. And you can just see where she normally had a big smile and she was happy go lucky, you could see the smile wasn't as evident. And that was.. that was tough.  She saw a therapist, which I think helped to some extent. But at the end of the day, it didn't ultimately save hers so... 

Terry [00:04:40] And there were previous attempts, correct. 

Chris Coulter [00:04:44] There were two previous attempts. Yeah. We lost Maddie in April of 2015. Her first attempt was in December of 2014. And. And then she spent ten days at the youth psychiatric ward at a local hospital. And then she came home, she was released. And then about a month later, she attempted again. The first time the police, fire engines, paramedics were summoned and all the neighbors are on the end of their driveway going, what's going on over here? And so the next time it occurred, I tried to be as discreet as possible. And when I knew there were no real she wasn't in imminent danger. I just kind of drove her to the hospital. But they they said, no, she's she's going to stay here. And she's going to stay here for a while. And so the second attempt prompted probably a two month stay at the at the same psychiatric ward. 

Terry [00:05:45] Even there under dire circumstances, Chris said his daughter displayed her trademark kindness. 

Chris Coulter [00:05:52] But the funny thing is, and this is just the nature of Maddie, she embraced her role when new kids would be brought on to the floor. She would she kind of relegated herself as the the ward greeter. She would say, Hey, I'm Maddie. This is the youth mental mental health psychiatric ward. What's your name? And just was very endearing and engaging. And it just .. people warmed up to her just instantaneously. But as we know, that was just this this overreaching attempt just to be nice and kind where I know she was she was really she was really hurting on the inside. 

Terry [00:06:46] She was hurting so much, in fact, that just a few months after being released from the hospital for the second time, Maddie made her third and final suicide attempt. 

Chris Coulter [00:06:56] So when it comes at you it comes at you fast. 

Terry [00:06:59] I'm hearing it, of course  as a parent. And I'm wondering how you how you catch your breath, how you how you release a breath when you don't know what's next. 

Chris Coulter [00:07:11] Well, I don't think you necessarily recognize when you are struggling with your own issues as a parent, because that is something that often falls on the heels of your of your child having depression. You inevitably are affected. And I know I had depression prior to that. But I think what what complicated was the uncertainty about Maddie with two previous attempts. There's this layer of anxiety that's on top of it. 

Terry [00:07:47] Often when I talk to a parent who has lost a child there, decades later is still the "how could that have happened? I just don't understand it." The whys. You went into a deep enough depression years later that you better understand how those thoughts can can grab hold of us and and lead us to places that our clear mind wouldn't take us. Can you talk a bit about that? Because I think that's a really unique part of your story. 

Chris Coulter [00:08:17] Trying to explain depression to someone who's never had it is very difficult. You can have the best day of your life and still feel completely deflated at the end of the day. And unfortunately, that is that is the reality of what depression's often like. I've struggled for sure over the last number of years, and there's been several occasions where I've I've never made a plan, but I've certainly I've certainly deliberated about is this an option? 

Terry [00:08:52] In one of the many articles Chris has written to help other parents and teens avoid the pain he and his family have endured, he shares about his darkest time, almost exactly three years after losing his daughter. He writes: "The first four months of 2018 was the hardest sustained period of battling depression in my life where I didn't think I could keep going. It was the first time I could actually relate to what Maddie must have been feeling on April 10th, 2015. My world went dark. For the first time in my life I felt unsafe with my thoughts. I kept getting perilously close to losing myself. I was suffocating. One breath at a time. For the first time ever, I was fearful for my safety. "

Chris Coulter [00:09:42] And at the end of the day, not being able to put my boys through that is ultimately the decision I arrived at. And I think in order to feel that, you have to feel so desperately alone. And feel that there's no there's no one who can help your current state. Or you just want the pain to stop. And that's the hardest part. And anyone that's ever been in that in that headspace recognizes, my God, it is so it's easy to do. 

Terry [00:10:22] In that mindset. Even Chris, who routinely encourages people who are hurting to reach out and share their feelings and dark thoughts, did not share his initially. He writes that he had a feeling of shame, that he was unworthy of the attention, that he didn't want to burden anyone, even though he knew he had many people who would have listened and helped. Chris writes that he didn't tell his therapist, his girlfriend, his family or his friends. 

Chris Coulter [00:10:51] You see these kids and we've all heard the phrase a permanent solution to a temporary problem. And the challenge the challenge is sometimes we just can't see past the current state that it's ever going to get any better. And that's where having certain coping mechanisms will help and a good support system. But it's you just need to be caught at a very vulnerable moment in time and you understand how it can happen. 

Terry [00:11:27] That understanding is a brutal thing to come to or to know your child has. And it's just one of many life-altering lessons Chris has learned from his family's tragedy. 

Chris Coulter [00:11:40] It's it's when you don't have gratitude in your life. I feel that that is the.. that's where things kind of go off the deep end.  And when you when you can't see what you're grateful for, when you can't say, you know why I'm so grateful for my parents or my kids or my dog or having a roof over my head where it seems so automatic for so many people. When you can't even see that, I think that is the that's the sad state of affairs that some people desperately are in and just want to remedy that pain. And that's what it is. It's it is it's a form of pain. 

Terry [00:12:25] I think it's when you believe that you are a burden to your loved ones and when you believe they'd be better off without you, that you are most at risk. That's what I have come to believe from talking to people. Because as long as you have that couldn't do this to my mother, couldn't do this to my children, couldn't do this to my partner, that's a, you know, a stop. That's a prevention mechanism. That's safety. You lose that, I don't know what would stop some people. 

Chris Coulter [00:12:53] Well, and that's what I'm I'm afraid that's what Maddie thought. She said she ended her life to help end our suffering. That's the spin she put on it and how she may have interpreted it. Do I know that wholeheartedly? I don't. But I suspect that's the way she was probably feeling. She just didn't want to burden us anymore. And as a parent, that's that's it's a painful that your child could even think that. 

Terry [00:13:26] Chris shares not only about his daughter's struggles and pain, but his own as well, because he says he believes that at least one other person has stood in his shoes and pondered the same fate. In his case,  after a night in what he describes as "this chasm of despair,"  he was able to, quote, "trudge into the next chapter of his life."  He writes that he did start talking to the people that mattered, which helped him get beyond his self-doubt and decide that by being vulnerable, he had more to gain than to lose. Chris concludes The article we've been quoting from with this: "Be aware that even those we believe are the soundest of mind, the kindest of heart and the most spirited in life are all vulnerable and susceptible to deep emotional pain. Let's not let the outer persona mask the inner turmoil. Beyond the pleasantries, probe deeply and lend a helping hand always. For this could make all the difference to someone who needs it most." 

Dr. Sanz [00:14:39] So, Terry, this is obviously a parent's worst nightmare that Chris has lived through. And then in the trying to live through the loss of Maddie, experiencing, you know, that level of depression, which unfortunately or fortunately, however you want to think about, that gave him some real insight into what Maddie was probably experiencing prior to taking her life. 

Terry [00:15:03] Yeah, it's a fascinating perspective and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But I do think, given that his voice is loud and getting louder, as you'll hear next week, that he is able to better explain  maybe, certainly better understand the full spectrum of depression from the inside on the outside. And I think that that will make him a more effective advocate. 

Dr. Sanz [00:15:30] Absolutely. 

Terry [00:15:30] Even though, again, wouldn't have wished any part of it on him or his family. 

Dr. Sanz [00:15:34] No, no, no. And I know that one of the things that came up, you know, as we were thinking about this episode is like,. 

Dr. Sanz [00:15:42] What do you do when you want to support someone who is not saying that they need support or wanting support or maybe actively when you first bring up the idea that you have concerns is kind of pushing you away in some way,. 

Terry [00:15:57] Which I  think is pretty common, isn't it?

Dr. Sanz [00:16:00] Pretty common? And I would, I would say very common, in young people, for sure. Yes. Although I hope that's changing. But yeah, I think that's actually something that's important for, you know, we've talked in so many ways of how to support someone who's depressed. 

Dr. Sanz [00:16:15] How do you support someone who you think is depressed and is pushing you away? And so I kind of say, listen, you know, we're not going to make you responsible as the person who wants to help for things that you don't have control over. Right? but if we if we really double down on what you do have control over, you would be surprised how effective it can be. So, for example, if you've brought up your concerns to someone and they're the brushing you off, but you know, you just leave with a bad feeling. You just don't feel good about, you know, that you're not reassured at all. Then what you do is take the responsibility, put the reminder in your phone or your calendar to check back in again so that you don't let life sort of get so busy that you forget. 

Dr. Sanz [00:17:04] And then as you revisit that reminder and you're going to make contact again, think about what made you concerned enough to ask if they were okay in the first place. And then if if that really hasn't changed, you know, somebody's kind of being withdrawn or, you know, behavior's off or they're just not talking or smiling as much, whatever it was that that got you concerned in the first place. You want to go back and you want to keep taking the emotional temperature of the person.  Keep following up. And, you know, you can say, hey, it's been a couple of weeks and I kind of feel like not much is has changed. I still don't see you doing this or I don't see the old you, you know. Would you be okay if we could really spend some time talking with me about this? But it's sort of like in our past episodes. #checkonyourfriends. Keep showing up. 

Dr. Sanz [00:17:57] That's what you can do. You. You can't know what's going on, especially if they won't share it. You can't just keep bothering and pestering someone on a daily basis. But what you can do is you keep coming back and you keep checking back in and you keep saying, Hey, you know, it's been two weeks, it's been two months. And I just I feel like something is still off. I still don't see the old you. I'm I'm still really concerned. And I need some reassurance about what's going on. And that's how you can sort of, I guess, pester without pestering or show up so that this person realizes somebody does care enough that they keep checking in. And I do think that for a lot of people who have depression, telling them that they're just a burden and sharing things with others will just bring them down. Your behavior of consistently pursuing this is going to challenge that. 

Terry [00:18:54] And then no one cares, right? Because someone's clearly caring. 

Dr. Sanz [00:18:57] Right. 

Terry [00:18:58] Right. We also have been talking before we started recording about that great Simon Sinek suggestion in an interview that you have sort of a code for when you need help so that you don't have to ask for it, because it's hard. And that makes it easier for you to ask. But it also makes it easier for someone to ask you because you have this little thing and his is and you've watched it more recently than I have, so I'll let you elaborate on it. But it's the concept of Do You Have Eight Minutes , not I'm struggling and I need your help, not the things that are just hard to say. So want to  give us a little summary on it? 

Dr. Sanz [00:19:34] Yeah, Yeah. It was a really great video and a really wonderful way for friends to learn how to communicate better with each other about this. But I know Simon had a really good friend who was very, very depressed. And and he, after he found out that that had been going on, he was like, why didn't you reach out to me? You know, I'm your good friend. Why why didn't you try? And she said, I did. I texted you. Do you want to come over? Do you want to hang out? And he's like, How is that any different than any other text that we've ever sent to each other? And that's when he realized, I need a code phrase or a question that alerts me that this isn't just, you know, I just can't, like, treat this like I have treated any other texts, you know, that says, hey, how's your day? Or do you want to come over? 

Terry [00:20:21] It's an S.O.S. 

Dr. Sanz [00:20:22] Yes, it's what is the S.O.S. Code? What is the S.O.S. text? You know, we have people do this all the time. They go out on a on a blind date and it's like, you know, give me the text that lets me know that I need to show up or whatever. So it's do you have eight minutes? Because eight minutes means, okay, I need to I need to stop, I need to respond to this. And it's going to take longer than just a text. It's a that's my S.O.S. text to you. And and so, yeah, I think I think if you if you can get a friend, a family member or a coworker or whoever you're worried about to say, hey, listen, if things are getting hard, would you just text me, you know this, That'll let me know without you having to say anything that you might not want on your phone or whatever. Right. Do you have eight minutes? And I loved I loved that solution. 

Terry [00:21:09] And I think there might have been some science behind the amount of time being eight minutes. And either way you'll know because we will link to that video with this episode so you can listen to it. But I have forgotten that detail. 

Dr. Sanz [00:21:22] The next week we'll continue our conversation with Chris and we'll hear about his plans to get both schools and parents more involved in helping children develop emotional intelligence to be better able to understand and manage their mental health issues. 

Terry [00:21:36] We'll be back next week. 

Dr. Sanz [00:21:43] We truly hope that our podcast brings a little more understanding, helped you better articulate and reflect on your own experience with depression, or better understand how to support someone else who is struggling. 

Terry [00:21:56] If this episode has been of comfort or value to you know that there are hundreds of others like it in our archive, which you can easily find at our website. Giving voice to depression.com. And remember if you are struggling, speak up. Even if it's hard if someone else is struggling, take the time to listen.