342-A Holistic Approach to Depression-TRANSCRIPT

Terry [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Giving Voice to Depression podcast brought to you by recovery.com. Each week we profile a guest who shares intimate details of their mental health journey they share because they understand that when people don't talk about their depression or other mental health conditions, those of us who struggle with them can feel like we're the only ones, that there's something wrong with us. Instead of understanding that we have a common and treatable illness. I'm Terry, the creator and co-host of this podcast. 

Anita [00:00:32] And I'm Dr. Anita Sanz, a licensed clinical psychologist with more than 25 years in clinical practice. I know from both personal and professional experience how significantly mental health and other disorders can impact not just our lives, but those around us as well. By speaking openly and with the wisdom of lived experience, we help normalize conversations that are often avoided due to shame or stigma. Our episodes are honest and real, and we keep them hopeful because there truly is hope despite what depression tells you. 

Terry [00:01:07] This podcast is brought to you by Recovery.com, whose mission is to help each person find the best path to recovery through a comprehensive, helpful network of treatment providers for both mental health and addiction treatment worldwide. 

Anita [00:01:26] Hi, Terry. 

Terry [00:01:27] Hello, Anita. So each of our episodes features a guest sharing about their experience living with and managing depression. And since each person is unique, each story is. 

Anita [00:01:38] And when a guest shares that a medication or specific type of therapy or other treatment option was key for them, they're not pitching it for you, and neither are we. The goal here is to share all sorts of information in the hopes that learning more about how other people deal with their depression and mental health in general will expose us all to the many available treatment options. Today's guest finds relief and a holistic approach to her depression management. And joining us now is Rena Shoshana Forester, giving her voice to depression. 

Terry [00:02:22] Rena learned about and developed empathy around depression as a child. 

Rena [00:02:27] Coming very closely in contact with depression regularly through my grandmother, who suffered from extreme anxiety and depression for my whole childhood. And she was a really difficult person to be around. But I was one of two people that she gave unconditional love to and we had a really special connection. And I it was always clear to me that the way that she was wasn't who she was at her core. And it was a result of traumas that she had been through in her life, and she lacked the tools and resources to properly process them. And then she became a really difficult person to be around as a  in connection with her depression. 

Terry [00:03:11] And you understood that as a child? 

Rena [00:03:14] Yeah. 

Terry [00:03:16] Rena also understood that her father experienced depression at various points in his life, too. 

Rena [00:03:22] It led him to start meditating, and within a couple of years, as a family we started to see how the practice of meditation was helping him with his depression. So when I did first started experiencing depression myself towards the end of college, I came at it with already those things, like in my consciousness. 

Terry [00:03:46] Rena describes that early depression as very minor. 

Rena [00:03:51] And it kind of just felt like, okay, college is ending. I have degrees in education. I don't want to teach in the school system. What am I doing? Where am I going? Where am I going to find a job? What's the next step? And I started working with a therapist. 

Terry [00:04:05] She decided to move to South Korea to teach English. And when her depressive symptoms alleviated, Rena took that as confirmation that she'd made the right decision. 

Rena [00:04:15] And then they started to surface again. 

Terry [00:04:18] At that point, she tapped back into her father's lived experience with depression to see if his tools would work for her as well. 

Rena [00:04:26] He had recommended I start meditating to help with the transition to life in Korea, at which point I said: No dad, that's for weirdos'. And then when I started to feel some of the symptoms come back and I reached out, I said, dad what was that meditation thing? Actually, I'm open to giving it a try. So I started meditating and really went on living without much encounter with depression until the winter of 2018. That depression hit strong. 

Terry [00:04:56] And what was that like? How did that manifest and feel? 

Rena [00:04:59] Yeah, well, interestingly enough, even though I had like I got a new depression through my grandma and through my dad, it's very different from actually  experiencing it. So I didn't know that that's what I was experiencing at first. 

Terry [00:05:12] Rene began working with a clinical psychologist. She says after one session, she left with a debilitating stomachache that lasted until their next session. 

Rena [00:05:23] And I went back to the psychologist and I shared with her, you know, I've had this weird stomachache all week. And she said, Are you open to doing a mind-body exercise? I said, Yeah, sure, I'm open to it. To this day, I'm still not really sure what she did, but she had me lie down on a table and she did whatever she did. And by the end of it she said, you need to consider taking antidepressants. And I was very against going on medication because I had seen my grandma take medication for seven... I mean, I didn't see for 70 years, but I know she took it for 70 years and I saw that she still suffered. So it just felt to me like that's not where the solution that's not where the root healing is going to happen for me. 

Terry [00:06:15] Still, Rena did make an appointment with a psychiatrist. 

Rena [00:06:18] Really just to show responsibility and that I was taking it seriously. 

Terry [00:06:22] Living in a country with socialized medicine, the wait for that appointment was several months, giving Rina the opportunity to remember something from her time in an ashram in India. 

Rena [00:06:35] While I was there, I heard miracle story after miracle story about yoga being a tool that people have used for healing both mental illnesses and physical illnesses. And at one point I just sat and made a commitment to myself that if this is something that can work, then I'm going to give it my best shot and see. And I just recommitted to that and doubled down on it and committed to getting 8 to 10 hours of sleep every day, committed to waking up and getting outside in the sun first thing in the morning,  to moving my body every day, practicing meditation, practicing pranayama breathwork I started making art, which was something I hadn't done since childhood. 

Terry [00:07:20] Reena also used a technique called focusing to better understand and ultimately manage her pain. 

Rena [00:07:27] And I used it on myself to understand, like to, like I said, build a relationship with the stomach pain and start to notice  when is it coming up? What's triggering it? What does it feel like? Does it have a shape? How can I describe it? And what are trying to tell me? And I understood in having dialog with it that it was coming up in a really poor attempt to try to protect me. And when I understood that it was trying to protect me, I was able to have like to laugh at it. Like, this is such a poor attempt at protection.  This is, it's so uncomfortable. And again, I was shocked at how frequently my body felt the need to protect me in such a way. 

Terry [00:08:11] A lot had changed for Rina by the time that psychiatry appointment finally arrived. 

Rena [00:08:16] I shared with her basically everything I've shared with you, but much more intensely (indepthly?). And I said, Look, if you really think I need to be on antidepressants, I'll consider it. You're the professional here. But I really don't think that I do. And here's all the things that I'm doing to support myself. And she looked me in the eye and she said, I don't think you need to take antidepressants. And, you know, it is my unique experience. And I do understand that medication can be really helpful for people. And it's just something that became not a part of my story. 

Terry [00:08:52] Renas symptoms were not limited to acute physical pain. She also experienced depressions, familiar dark thoughts. 

Rena [00:09:00] There were definitely stories of like, you're not good enough, you're not worthy-- just spending a lot of time laying on the couch and feeling heavy and feeling like there was just like a gray cloud around me. 

Terry [00:09:13] I think that weight is so interesting because I describe it as like the vest they put on you when they do an X-ray at the dentist or something. Like there's a physical weight sort of holding you down sometimes. 

Rena [00:09:25] Yeah. And I also like to so people listening know like it's not like this was a one off and it never happened again. Those thoughts and the cloudiness and the weightedness that does feel like that heavy blanket,  I have experienced that again. I just am confident in the tools that I have and they've been working to to process the depression. 

Terry [00:09:46] Another aspect of Rena's processing has been the realization that several life events contributed to or created a welcoming environment for her depression. They include hormones, culture shock and unsupportive environments, as well as a serious traumatic motorcycle accident. 

Rena [00:10:06] My bike fell on top of me and I couldn't pick it up. I mean, I blacked out for a moment. Thank God. The whole sea of motorcycles that was just behind me had stopped. And a Vietnamese man wearing a suit, who spoke English which is very rare, I opened my eyes and he was above me and he took the motorcycle off of me and brought me over to the side of the road. And he said, Are you able to drive home? And I kind of looked at him bloody and shaken up and my clothes ripped, and I wasn't really sure what to say. And he looked at me and he said, Count your blessings. And I got back on the bike and I drove to where I was going. And I just like there was there was no I mean, I had this near-death traumatic experience. And when that's not processed, it gets buried into the unconscious mind. And that's exactly what happened, because I had no framework for processing that I had just been through a near-death motorcycle accident in Vietnam. And the culture there is you just get back on and keep going. 

Terry [00:11:10] What a metaphor. 

Rena [00:11:12] Yes, I was really good at getting a just keeping going. 

Terry [00:11:17] In the same way that Rina worked to have a relationship with her physical conditions, she also committed to reframing and understanding mental health, too. 

Rena [00:11:27] Yeah, so I see depression as one of the emotions that humans are capable of experiencing. And.  as a human, like to have the most thriving human experience, we want to experience as many emotions as possible. So, understanding that depression, like even though I made an effort to heal depression at its root and in a commitment to myself to not want to go back to that low place again, I also accepted that depression in less severe forms is probably going to continue coming up in my life for the rest of my life because I'm human and that's part of what I accept as the human condition. And so I committed to being in a relationship with the Depression in the same way, kind of being in a relationship with my emotional wellness. And that depression is a piece of that. 

Terry [00:12:32] It's a very different perspective on depression, right? Rather than hating, battling or hiding it, the idea of trying to learn from and understand depression offers opportunities that we just don't hear about as much. 

Rena [00:12:47] Everybody's experience of depression is unique and everybody's healing is also going to be unique. And I guess like as a snippet of knowledge that could be passed on from my story to other people is to use depression as an invitation to go inwards. And to I have chosen to to get to know the Depression and to do so in whatever way aligns with you. So for me, it was all of the healing tools that I used and also the focusing and building a relationship with that depression. For whatever reason, it's something that I was able to do primarily on my own. But that's where professional help, I believe, can come really in handy because it's about going inwards and sometimes we need someone else to be holding that space or guiding the process or providing tools to be able to do that. But time and time again to come back to this is an invitation to go inwards. What is it here to teach me? What can I learn from this? 

Anita [00:14:11] So, Terry, I really loved so much of what Rena had to say. And and there were a couple of things that really stood out to me. And I'm just curious to see if the same was for you. 

Terry [00:14:20] Me, too. I've got my list. 

Anita [00:14:21] All right. Well, one was that Rena saw what helped and what didn't help with members of her family, you know, who were dealing with trauma or depression. So while she was growing up, she already had some ideas in mind about what to do, maybe what to stay away from. And I just thought that was so fascinating and kind of a good note for anyone that we are always teaching other people and they're watching us. They're learning from us. And I just love so much that she remembered in particular how her dad and his practice of of meditation and yoga really stood out to her and ended up being so helpful to her when she ended up dealing with depression herself. 

Terry [00:15:05] Those are the first two notes of mine as well. And the level of communication and vulnerability and openness that happened in that family. Because I grew up with a father who had a mental health disorder and we did not talk about it or acknowledge it in any way, nor was it managed in any way. So the fact that it was I have something. It's called this. I am trying to manage it via this. That's all so healthy and helpful because in the event that someone in your world needs that information and that modeling, they've got it. It's like, Hey, Dad, what was that? 

Anita [00:15:39] Yeah, right. And it doesn't even have to be you. Like you said, it could be, you know, a future partner or a friend or a coworker, but just. Yeah, you're right. This is one of the ways that busting stigma and families becoming more comfortable talking to each other about what they're dealing with can just have these really wide reaching positive effects. 

Terry [00:16:00] Absolutely. And understanding, you know, gaining and developing some empathy as a child and realizing that her grandmother, who wass "difficult," was difficult because she was going through something difficult. 

Anita [00:16:12] And at a time when she wouldn't have had access to all of this information. 

Terry [00:16:17] Yes. Yes. 

Anita [00:16:18] Yeah. The other thing that I absolutely love about the way that Rena talked about this, and maybe maybe this would be more common with a holistic way of treating depression, but I just also think it's a very wise, a very wise way of thinking about managing anything chronic. She committed to being in a relationship with her depression. And to me, that feels like rather than trying to push it away or get rid of it, which doesn't it seem like the right thing to do?Llike, let's get rid of this. Instead, she embraced it. And it goes along so well with the way that I think about living with a, you know, a chronic illness. And I've talked with my clients about this. It's sort of like that three legged race that you can have at picnics where you get tied by one leg to another person, and you have to see how fast you can get to the the finish line. And in a three legged race, unless you literally throw your arm around the other person and move at the pace that both of you can do it, you're going to fall. You're going to try to be dragging somebody who's connected to you behind you. It just won't work. So I love this idea of embracing this thing that, yes, it's causing us a lot of difficulty and problems and challenges, but if we don't embrace it and move at the pace that it can move, we don't get to move forward either. 

Terry [00:17:41] I think you copied my test paper because that was literally the third of the three points I wrote, including that she said, What is my depression here to teach me and what can I learn from it? And boy, I have little curiosity about my depression when I'm in it. I just hate it. I either don't understand it, don't even recognize that's what it is, or I want it to go away, as you said. Yes, but I wonder what I could learn and if those lessons could help me notice it earlier, get out of it sooner, you know, all of those things. I was also fascinated by that. 

Anita [00:18:16] Yeah. And, you know, I'm still kind of like crawling my way through a chronic fatigue relapse, but I don't think it's an either/or. I think you can hate, you know, sort of that subjective experience of, you know, the fatigue or depression or whatever you're symptom package is-- and at the same time, you could be curious about what can I learn from this, so that it isn't an either/or. Because otherwise I think we could get we could get into a shaming place of, you know, you should you should look at the positive aspect of this or something. And I think she was very grounded in the way that she talked about this. You know, it was like, it's here and I have it and I'm going to have to deal with it. So here's the acceptance piece that I think is critical for almost any learning or change to happen. But she's not like saying everybody should get depressed so that they can learn something from it. It's an it's an awful it's an awful experience and we need to say it can both be awful and it can teach you something at the same time. It's not an either or. 

Terry [00:19:18] And thinking back to previous guests without using that language, I think that's been a common theme. I think a lot of people have talked about compassion, and mostly that I think is is sort of the takeaway. It's like you come out of it. What do they say? That's what the storm's about. You know, we're different when we come out of the storm. That's why it was there. And again, it's hard to, you know, wrap your arms around. It's not like, yeah, you know, great. What a lovely thing to have happened because there are gentler teachers. But also are and also definitely have learned. Absolutely have learned from my own experience, from your experience, from every guest's experience, there's great education in it. Not that I like any part of it, but I do acknowledge that I have learned and grown through the experience. 

Anita [00:20:05] Yeah, absolutely. 

Terry [00:20:06] Yes, indeed. So thank you, Rena, for sharing your story. Thank you, Anita. And thank you to Rena's family for allowing her and giving her permission to share some of their experiences while discussing hers. 

Anita [00:20:25] We truly hope that our podcast brings a little more understanding, helped you better articulate and reflect on your own experience with depression, or better understand how to support someone else who is struggling. 

Terry [00:20:39] If this episode has been of comfort or value to you know that there are hundreds of others like it in our archive, which you can easily find at our website. Giving voice to depression.com. And remember if you are struggling, speak up. Even if it's hard if someone else is struggling, take the time to listen.