334-Straight Talk about Mental Health and Addictions-TRANSCRIPT

Terry [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Giving Voice to Depression podcast brought to you by recovery.com. Each week we profile a guest who shares intimate details of their mental health journey they share because they understand that when people don't talk about their depression or other mental health conditions, those of us who struggle with them can feel like we're the only ones, that there's something wrong with us. Instead of understanding that we have a common and treatable illness. I'm Terry, the creator and co-host of this podcast. 

Anita [00:00:32] And I'm Dr. Anita Sanz, a licensed clinical psychologist with more than 25 years in clinical practice. I know from both personal and professional experience how significantly mental health and other disorders can impact not just our lives, but those around us as well. By speaking openly and with the wisdom of lived experience, we help normalize conversations that are often avoided due to shame or stigma. Our episodes are honest and real, and we keep them hopeful because there truly is hope despite what depression tells you. 

Terry [00:01:07] This podcast is brought to you by recovery.com, whose mission is to help each person find the best path to recovery through a comprehensive, helpful network of treatment providers for both mental health and addiction treatment worldwide. We record a couple new interviews each month and also replace some of our best ones from the archives so that newer listeners don't miss out on those. This one is from the early years when my sister Bridget co-hosted before Dr. Sanz. 

Bridget [00:01:41] Hello, Bridget. Hi, Terry. If you've listened to this podcast before, you know our intention is to talk about depression, bipolar disorder, anxiety and suicidal thoughts without judgment, shame or stigma. Since the vast majority of our guests live with or are affected by those mental health challenges, hearing them talk about their struggles, experience and ways of managing is a form of peer support that reminds us all that what we have and how we think is not as strange or as other as you might think. And that many people with the same diagnoses and challenges are functioning in the world and living lives they usually or at least often enjoy. 

Terry [00:02:27] Some of our guests have shared their stories here for the very first time, and that's an honor we don't take lightly. Others have done TED talks, spoken at conferences or written books about their mental illness and mental health. But in our 200 plus episodes, we're not sure we've ever run across someone who speaks about suicide, depression and addictions as casually, comfortably and reassuringly as Zane Thomas, a rapper and comedian. 

Bridget [00:02:57] We first encountered him just last week in an Instagram video that was recommended to us by a podcast listener. Thank you, RK. Zane was on a break and recorded a message to his followers in his car. If you just saw it, you would think he was talking about something mundane, maybe how his day was going or his plans for the holidays. But Zane was talking about a suicidal friend and his own damning thoughts, addictions and sobriety. We immediately thought that is how we wish that people talked about this stuff. That tone would make someone feel safe, safe enough to share their story and maybe even ask for help. So here's Zane giving his voice to depression, starting with the audio from some of his Instagram video. 

Zane [00:03:51] Hey, guys. Zane here taking a smoke break, just checking in and saying what's up? I wanted to give you guys a little bit of an update. 

Zane [00:03:58] Last week, a friend of mine reached out to me and they told me that they were suicidal and I didn't really know what to say. So I just kind of asked questions. I was like, hey, you know, is it is it something that that you can fix? Is it something out of out of your control? I just kind of asked them questions because in my experience, when I'm feeling suicidal, it's usually because I'm it's usually because I'm overwhelmed or I feel trapped. And for me, when people ask me questions about like, what's making me feel suicidal, it kind of helps me narrow it down and kind of process what I'm upset about a little bit better. So I asked my friends and we basically came to the conclusion that the reason he was feeling suicidal is that there was a voice in his head that was telling him that he didn't have friends, that was telling him that he was a failure. 

Terry [00:04:47] Sound familiar? Yeah. We'll get into that. So Zane told his friend to try something that works for him and talk back to those thoughts. Call them out, because while they are in our heads and in our voices, they're not really our thoughts. 

Zane [00:05:05] What you're going to you're going to tell me the same thing that you told me last time. That's real original. Because here's the. 

Zane [00:05:10] Here's the thing. I feel like if it was somebody else talking about one of your friends, you wouldn't put up with that. You'd be like, I love that person. They're amazing. Don't talk about my friend like that. But when it's us in our head, it's so easy to just, well, I thought it so it must be true. You know, we don't really challenge  the the voices in our head. 

Terry [00:05:32] Zane elaborated on that in our phone call. 

Zane [00:05:35] So my advice would be, you know, think of yourself as a friend and don't let anybody real or in your head talk trash about that person. Yeah, love yourself. 

Terry [00:05:50] That is so hard to do When your thoughts are telling you you have no value and that dragging your family down and that everybody would be better off without you. 

Zane [00:05:59] Amen to that. Amen to that. But we keep trying. We keep trying. 

Terry [00:06:04] Which made us wonder if recognizing that depression plays the same tapes in our head every time it spews its venom. And if that knowledge allows Zane some space to talk back? Would there be relief or power or more space to fight back if we all realize that depression says literally the same thing to everyone in its grips; that we'll never get out or feel better, that there's no point in trying, that we're a burden to our family and friends, and maybe even that we'd literally be better off dead. 

Zane [00:06:42] Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. I just. I just got relief from you telling me, you know, because it's. It is looking at that as as yeah no, thank you. 

Zane [00:06:51] It is looking at it kind of like as a bully where it's just like, man, this going to gives everybody crap, you know, like I'm like just walking through the halls and existing is enough true for this guy to say something awful, you know? So I think yeah, that's definitely that's, that's a really good way to to think about it. You know, I was when I was talking about I was internalizing it, you know, a voice or, you know, a thought in my head that, you know, only I was having. And it's it's not that I believe that only I have those thoughts, but, you know, at the moment, it's like, this is my thought, you know, And I shared the video, too, because I was relating to people because I knew that they also had similar thoughts. But the way that you described is the bully is, you know, it's like this person says the same stuff to everybody. That's I really like that. 

Terry [00:07:31] Humor is another of Zane's go-to mental health coping tools. 

Zane [00:07:37] Sometimes I get in these moods where I'm just like, I'm in the deepest depression and I hate everything. I hate myself, everything outside of me. And I'll be really I'll be really low. And it's funny because, like, the only thing that will bring me out of that is a laugh. And I know that if I can just get one laugh and if I can laugh once, I can laugh twice. So when that when I'm that low, it's it's kind of just like it's like there's got to be one there's got to be one thing to laugh about. I have to be able to look at myself and just be like, man, curling up in a ball. This is really fixing your relationship problems, you know? Like whether whatever it is, whatever it is, that's the, you know, what I'm dealing with. It's like, if I can just get that one laugh, it's like, okay, this isn't that big of a deal. I can almost exhale and breathe better because it's like, you know, once you can laugh about something, once somebody relates with you and you can laugh about it if it takes talking to a friend, you know, and kind of just being like, Hey, man, you know, I can't recall any jokes right now because I'm depressed, but I know it's but it's like my brain almost works better because I'm searching for them. I'm searching for that laugh because I know it's going to make me feel better. 

Terry [00:08:40] And that must be true for a lot of people, because. 

Terry [00:08:42] If you spend any time on social media, especially if you follow mental health posts like we do, it's very common for someone to write that they're in a really bad place and then ask for just the kind of posts they know will help them through it. It's probably not the best way to reach out during a crisis, but before then, when you notice you're slipping or even when you're in deep but not in danger, it could be. I mean, think about it. Reaching out to an online support group or your own network provides connection, distraction and a reminder that there are still good people and good things in the world. 

Zane [00:09:21] Yeah, I always see people post, you know, like, Hey, I'm having a rough day, share some some cat videos, you know, and everyone on the Internet will just kind of get together and they'll just, you know, be like, Hey, this one made me laugh or, Hey, this might make you laugh or this might make you smile. 

Terry [00:09:36] Even for a comedian, though, Zane admits humor works better in the times, he can kind of put his finger on something external or circumstantial that's triggering the slip into darkness. 

Zane [00:09:48] When it's internal, I have a harder time dealing with it. I definitely have a harder time dealing with the internal. But what I do is I make it external and I talk I talk to people about it, you know, and and like I said, for me,. 

Zane [00:10:01] I'm a comedian, so I try to I try to put it into a joke. You know, I try to I try to find a way to explain the way that I'm feeling. You know, like,. 

[00:10:12] For example, I was diagnosed bipolar. And if you're wondering how I'm feeling about it, I'm kind of back and forth just right. Right. So, I mean, that's how I try. I yeah, I'm kind of up and down, you know, So it's, it's, it's I try and take these things and process them for humor, you know, a lot of, a lot of my, my internal depression when it's it's when it comes from nowhere it's really hard to it's hard to put a finger on and like you know for example like, you know,. 

Zane [00:10:44] When I get depressed sometimes it'll be about nothing. And there's, there's no there's no way to put a finger on it, you know, So almost trying to I don't want to beat myself up about not knowing why I'm upset, you know. And in that case, it's like it's almost better to not ask questions. It's better to kind of be like, hey, this is this is the way my brain works. Right now I'm in a bad mood. I'll get out of this bad mood. But right now, I just need to understand that, like, because of the chemistry and wiring in my brain, I don't want to say not allowed, but it is in a way, it's like not allowed to to get out of this mood just mood just yet. 

Terry [00:11:20] A quick public service announcement for people like us with depression, "yet" is a powerful little word. In the power of believing that you can improve, carol Dweck writes: We are all on a learning journey. And just because you haven't accomplished a task yet doesn't mean that you cannot or should not try. And certainly that you should not give up. Your "yet" is coming. Your yet is not yet here. It's a type of hope that is instilled in us to not give up. And we all know that depression's goal is to make us give up, yet can be another little tool for fighting back. For example, hear the difference and feel the difference between. I haven't done the laundry. I can't get out of bed. I haven't taken a shower. And then saying those with the word get after it. I haven't taken a shower yet. I don't know. It's something to think about anyway. 

Terry [00:12:17] Our next question for Zane was whether he'd be making music or comedy if he didn't have mental health challenges. 

Zane [00:12:25] And I don't know what I would write about. Because a lot of a lot of my comedy is about, you know, it's about dealing with being different. It's about it's about struggling in small towns to find who you are. It's about drug abuse, which, you know, is very connected to mental illness. A lot of my music is about losing people. It's about, you know, the loss that either a family member has felt. My fear of losing people, my depression, because I've failed relationships. You know, so it's like, yeah, it's very all of it's very emotional. And I as much as I want to say I would trade it, you know, I when somebody comes to me after it comes up to me after a song and says thank you and is like genuinely thankful because the things that I said in the song connected with them, there's no better feeling. 

Terry [00:13:17] So you just mentioned drug abuse, which you also addressed in your Instagram video. 

Terry [00:13:22] How has substance use impacted your mental health? 

Zane [00:13:26] So I'd always had it in my mind that I was never going to use substances as a coping mechanism. But as I continued to use more and more, I think I didn't realize that, you know, not feeling comfortable in the room was it was it was also a different type of coping. And what eventually ended up happening is, is I lost a dear friend of mine in a car accident, and when I was torn up about it, I basically justify to myself that, you know what, they'd want me to be happy. They'd want me to be doing what they were doing. So I ended up using harder and harder drugs, and that's when it really started spiraling out into a coping mechanism. And it all kind of spiraled up until the point that I was was busted with crystal meth. 

Terry [00:14:14] Zane says that was a life changing experience. He quit the hard stuff. But...

Zane [00:14:18] kept on drinking and drinking and drinking. And I would have fights with my friends. And I didn't realize that because I have bipolar, that alcohol was so toxic to me and toxic to the people around me. 

Terry [00:14:31] It's a common dance. Even when we know better, we don't or can't always do better. 

Zane [00:14:38] As far as addiction. You know, you justify it as in like, why am I doing what I did before and I'm not drinking like I used to? You you justify it just because, you know, you feel sad. You know, you feel anxious. I don't want to I don't want to go up and not do well. And if I don't do well, I don't want to feel bad about it. I want to numb that feeling as much as I can. So, you know, drinking and substance abuse definitely go hand-in-hand with my mental health. 

Terry [00:15:05] Though, Zane says he's in better control of his drinking now, he still recognizes it as a gamble. 

Zane [00:15:11] When it comes to like, bipolar, I. What I know is that my emotions do cycle rapidly, so I could be in the best mood once again and, you know, be the most front of the party. But the opposite is also true. And alcohol is very emotional, too. You know, if you've ever if you've ever drank in a good mood, you spent a pretty good mood. And if you've ever drank in a bad mood, you've probably stayed in a bad mood. So get worse. Yeah. Yeah. Or got worse. Exactly. Alcohol's a depressant, so it's definitely not a cure for feeling bad already. So what I meant when I said is that I was gambling is that, you know, there's a chance that I could be in the best mood and the best person that I want to be and present. But there's also a chance that I could be the worst person and the worst person that I want to present. And it's it's not worth it to me to to gamble in that sense that, like, I don't know which one's going to be which,  because I don't have as much control over it as I wish I did because of my mental illness. 

Terry [00:16:10] See why we wanted Zane on the podcast. He's a model for speaking frankly, matter of factly and without shame about the things that many people too many people keep hidden and very few healthy things grow or heal in darkness. Zayn understands that, which is why he ended that impromptu video he recorded, which can be seen by anyone with Internet anywhere in the world with an offer to be there, to listen. And that's a gift most of us don't even get from our closest friends. 

Zane [00:16:43] I've seen a lot of people do that. I've seen a lot of people sit by. It's usually happens after somebody somebody commits suicide is is everyone is like, hey, I'm here for you if you need to talk to anybody. I just I kind of wanted to reach out before it got to that point, you know,. 

Zane [00:17:01] Because I've waited too many times and and not known that somebody was hurting and not knowing if I could help and, you know, lost people and wondered if that if if I could have been the difference in that. So, you know, when I reach out and I'm like, hey, you know, if you're feeling like this, you know, reach out, talk to me, because I'm I'm familiar with it, you know, and I'm not going to judge. And, you know, I'm somebody who genuinely does does want the best for people. And I do want to see I want to see people happy. And I'm like I said, I'm always asking questions of people. So, you know, sometimes it helps just to get your mind off of it. 

Terry [00:17:36] And if you're at a loss for how to do that for someone, Zane actually recommends a question that's a good one to keep up our sleep. 

Zane [00:17:44] Hey, what are you excited for? That is my absolute favorite question to ask anybody whether they're depressed or not depressed. Ask somebody what they're excited for. Don't ask them what they're doing. Ask them what they're excited for, because that will make them think like, man, I actually do have something to look forward to. 

Terry [00:18:05] The great question, isn't it? 

Bridget [00:18:06] It is a great question because we all need to be anchored in our you know,. 

Bridget [00:18:09] I call it our compelling. Why? You know, it's like what's making life worth living and what's making us feel kind of juicy and looking forward, kind of running some energy that feels good.( Did you say are compelling? Why? Like, why? I love that. Yeah, it's cool. 

Bridget [00:18:29] And I just want to thank Zane because he's keeping it real. You know, he's talking about the real stuff. He's talking about the hard stuff. And I just think that's what we all need to be, you know, striving toward is just keeping it real. Being real. Being supportive, being available and not being judgmental. 

Terry [00:18:47] It's certainly how we're going to fight stigma. 

Terry [00:18:50] I do want to point out one word that he used not to call him out, but just to point out something we've learned doing this. Committed suicide. Yeah. Committed is what criminals do. They commit crimes. And suicide is no longer a crime. It actually once was. So the preferred language is died by suicide, took his or her own life, even killed him or herself, but not committed. It's especially hard on the families because in addition to their loss, they certainly don't want to be thinking of the person they lost as having engaged in criminal behavior. So just a little PSA there. 

Terry [00:19:25] And we want to we will be linking to Zane's Instagram, which is Zane the Rapper. If you want to check that and we invite you to follow us on Facebook. It's giving voice to depression. And there are more than 9000 people in our community. And Instagram, you can find us at Giving Voice to Depression podcast and on Twitter it's at voice depression. And that'd be a way we can all stay connected in between these podcasts. And let's close out with the reminder that Zane said to talk back to the bully in our head. And even if you pointed out, you know, that's an ongoing thing. Just keep try and keep trying. Keep trying. Amen. 

Anita [00:20:10] We truly hope that our podcast brings a little more understanding, helped you better articulate and reflect on your own experience with depression, or better understand how to support someone else who is struggling. 

Terry [00:20:24] If this episode has been of comfort or value to you know that there are hundreds of others like it in our archive, which you can easily find at our website. Giving voice to depression.com. And remember if you are struggling, speak up. Even if it's hard if someone else is struggling, take the time to listen.