325-Recovery is Worth the Hard Work 

Terry [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Giving Voice to Depression podcast. I'm Terry, the creator and co-host of this podcast. I've lived with depression most of my life, and I know how easy it can be to feel all alone in the experience. I'm not alone, and you aren't either. 

Anita [00:00:21] And I'm Doctor Anita Sanz, a licensed clinical psychologist with a number of my own diagnoses, all of which bring a certain amount of anxiety and depression along with them. There is great power and shared experiences. We share our own as we engage in intimate and candid conversations with our weekly guests, exploring different perspectives on and experiences with depression. 

Terry [00:00:45] We keep it real because depression is real. We keep it hopeful because there truly is hope in spite of what depression tells you. This podcast is produced in partnership with Recovery.com. Recovery.com provides resources and information for individuals seeking treatment for mental health or addiction issues. Its website is a fact checked and vetted online platform of treatment centers to help individuals find the right path to recovery. Hello, Anita. 

Anita [00:01:18] Hi, Terry. We found and posted an exquisite quote on the internet that really resonated with our Facebook community, and we wanted to share it with you too. It's author Ehime Ora  writes: "You've got to resurrect the deep pain within you and give it a place to live that's not within your body. Let it live in art. Let it live in writing. Let it live in music. Let it be devoured by building brighter connections. Your body is not a coffin for pain to be buried in. Put it somewhere else."

Terry [00:01:56] Don't you love that? 

Anita [00:01:58] Beautiful. 

Terry [00:01:58] Yeah. It really resonated with me, too. And, while  today's guest did not write that, she does embody its message. Renee is a guest we first profiled about five years ago and we'll link to her original episode. She recently wrote a long post about her mental health journey, and she started it with: " I don't know who needs to hear this. It's hard as F and entirely worth it." Renee wrote that a decade ago she decided to focus on the ugliest, darkest parts of her childhood to both learn new coping strategies and to have more compassion for her younger self. 

Anita [00:02:33] Naturally, after seeing the post, we reached out to Renee and asked if it was time for an update episode, and she said it was. And the timing w/ suicide Prevention Awareness Month really couldn't be better. So here is Renee giving her voice to depression again. 

Renee [00:02:59] Yeah. I was in a place where I was aware of that I was a trauma survivor, but I kind of thought that that was the end. You know, it was just, well, now deal with it the rest of your life. 

Terry [00:03:11] But in the years since, Renee has learned and now models, that what seems like the end can be transformed, with hard work, into a hope-filled new beginning. 

Renee [00:03:23] Ten years ago, I was just such a different person. I was passive. I was unhappy. I was wearing this mask that I was trying to be what everybody else wanted me to be. And I love who I am now. I love being confident and unique and I just I didn't even see, I, I wouldn't know who this person is that I am right now had I met myself ten years ago. 

Renee [00:03:50] I actually had a friend, this was only like three years, maybe two years into my recovery work that said to me, you know, he hadn't seen me in 2 or 3 years and said,  wow, Renee you're just so different. And, you know, he was saying it in a good way, like, this is great to see the difference. And, like I said, I just I didn't even know this was possible. But it is. It's not just a hallmark card. It is truth, you know, from experience that it can and will get better, if you put in the hard work. 

Terry [00:04:30] The tools Renee credits most for her transformation are two forms of therapy. 

Renee [00:04:35] I need to be surrounded by people that truly understand me. I need to go through and like, actually deal with the problem. And, in the group therapy setting, you know, that's you're surrounded by people that have very similar experiences versus someone that's like just knows about trauma through a textbook or through Instagram Reels or whatever. So that was kind of a that was a huge pivot in my life of actually delving into the really hard stuff. And it was very hard. It was forcing myself to go to group therapy and sometimes getting even physically sick over it, just knowing the things that were going to come up and, you know, nobody wants to talk about that stuff. It's ugly, it's hard, it's painful. But you can't get over it until you get through it. 

Terry [00:05:37] You can't get over it until you get through it. 

Renee [00:05:40] And I, I can say it has completely changed my life. Just that, like I said, it's like a validation of saying out loud the ugly things and not having people reel back and and be disgusted or judge me or think, well, why aren't you just getting over it? Or, well it's not that hard, or it was a long time ago, or, you know, all the things that people say that they think they're being nice. And that was that was huge for me. 

Terry [00:06:11] Also huge was the realization that not all healing expression is verbal. 

Renee [00:06:17] You know, a lot of this really ugly, painful stuff doesn't have words. Because, you know  I was a child when I was experiencing it, and it just it helps to kind of have a have that outlet in art. To be able to express those things was very helpful for me. You know, my art therapist would have a certain kind of goal or a project in mind or like a question to delve into and just my, you know, being able to use paints or collage or, you know, whatever the medium is and it's it's like a grounding experience while you're going through the hard stuff and, and processing it. Yeah. It's it's not fun. It's not easy. But now, you know, ten years later, I can say, like, I don't know where I would even be had I not started that process. I. Who knows if I'd even still be around. You know, I just I was in a really kind of hopeless place. 

Terry [00:07:21] That hopeless place is a familiar one to many of us with depression. But Renee reminds it is not a permanent place. 

Renee [00:07:30] I definitely struggled with that in my younger years, even into my 20s. Definitely had some suicidal ideation, and I was actually, as a teenager, hospitalized after an attempt. So definitely dealt with that. But now it's like I see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I know it can get better. And I know that if I do the hard work, it will get better. So instead of being in this hopeless pit of despair, I have kind of climbed my way up and now understand that it's up to me to get better. 

Renee [00:08:11] It's up to me to choose to.. and not to say that you can choose to not have depression. I'm not trying to, invalidate it like that, but I know that I can change it. And I think it's that hope or the faith I guess I have in myself now that I can do the things and I can change. I've seen it, you know I've done it. Now I know that it's possible. And it just doesn't feel hopeless to the point of no return anymore. 

Terry [00:08:49] Renee describes it as the difference between experiencing just a down part on the roller coaster ride versus what it felt like for her before, which was falling off the tracks. 

Terry [00:09:00] So when you were in those places, I'm assuming it would have been difficult for you to hear a message of hope like the one you're giving us. And I wonder how you would speak to somebody who is there so that they understand that what you're saying is your true experience and not some bumper sticker, hallmark card or something we're trying to sell, but that it's real? 

Renee [00:09:23] I don't know, because, you know, it is hard because when you're in that place, like, everybody just seems like they're being stupid. Like, no, that's not how it is, you know,  I mean and the depression gives you that. They it lies to you like that. All I, all I can say is, you know, I've lived it.  This is not just a, I don't know, it's not a cheesy way to try to make people smile. It's really a message of even though it's hard, it can change. And I feel like once. I don't, I don't know. I don't know, Terry. It's stumping me because like you said, you know, it's hard when you're in that place to hear anything else. And I know I was that person that was like, no, that's not true. Like, you don't understand me. I guess really, that that does come back to the group therapy thing for me is that having other people with very similar experiences validated my whole situation, and it made it like, I guess it made it less personal just to have like a community of people that truly understands. It takes some of like the feelings of loneliness away to know that you're not alone and you're not in this pit all by yourself. You know, there's people out there that can help lift you up. And it's possible. Like, I don't know. That's all I can say, I guess. 

Terry [00:11:07] And it's, you know, as hard to believe is there is hope. You know is you're not alone. And I know that in my depths of depression, I was physically very, very, very alone. And so when I had I heard that I would have said, oh yeah, you see anybody around? But when we say it, what we mean is you're not the only one having an experience similar to this. You are not a flawed human being who is uniquely suffering. And that's another message that can be hard to get across because #you're not alone, you know, kind of makes you want to... react in a way that's, you know, not not accepting that message. 

Renee [00:11:46] Right. And I mean, this podcast is huge for that to just.. it's really about the stigma around, you know, talking about it. It's like, oh, you're not alone. But like also sshhh, don't talk about that. You know, it's people don't want to hear the ugly truths. They don't want to, you know. How are you doing today? Oh. I'm good. Like, that's the classic thing to say, right? And if you say anything else, it's like, oh, God, why are you so dark?? You know, sometimes, like my friends say, that I'm dark and I'm like I'm just being honest, you know. You're asking me how I'm doing? I'm doing shit today. Like, you know, I'm not doing well. And I will tell you that. 

Terry [00:12:28] Renee will also tell you that healing, growing, changing, managing your mental health and recovering are all a lot of work, but that that's the part of our stories we do have control over. 

Renee [00:12:43] Just the the little inklings that I got of, you know,  just being aware of my triggers has changed my mindset. Being able to see things outside of myself and react to them in a calm and thoughtful and safe way. That has just changed my behavior and has changed the people I surround myself with. It. Yeah. It's not. It's not pretty. It's not easy. You know anybody that I have, some friends that have some things they need to deal with and trying to convince them to finally start therapy, it's like, yeah, you need to do it. It's great. It's not easy. Like, it's going to be hard. You know, it's probably going to get worse before it gets better because you're opening up all those floodgates of emotion and repression and undealt with ugly things. And, you know, in order to fix it, quote unquote, you have to get in there and see all what's broken. 

Terry [00:13:54] When you just said that it I had the metaphor of, like when you clean out a closet, right? It does get a lot messier before it. Yeah. You have to take everything out and you have to go through it. What serves me, what doesn't? What do I use? What do I no longer want? And you know, the end result, which is, you know, an ongoing thing when we're talking about our lives,  is better. It's an improvement. But it is a heck of a mess in between. 

Terry [00:14:18] Renee says as a result of all the hard work she's already done. She now feels safe to delve into other things. One of her current challenges is setting really hard and long overdue boundaries with some people in her life. 

Renee [00:14:33] It's almost like, how did I not see how bad this was before? But it's because I wasn't prepared to see how bad it was. Until I got to the point where I felt capable of dealing with it, my brain didn't even see it as a problem because it was like survival, and I was just getting through what I had to get through. So it's it's hard in the sense that, like, you know, I could just leave it. I could just continue to go on this way and, and not deal with anything further. But I don't want to because I see the benefit of getting through it. And the other side of what that looks like.  You know, it's like working out or exercising like some people really do like it. I don't know who they are, but but, you know, it's it's I'm going to sweat and I'm going to be in pain, but at the end of it, I'm going to be more fit or healthier. It's, you know, the same process. It's the blood, sweat and tears have to come for the the positive outcome. 

Terry [00:15:42] So when it's worth it, all the work, all the blood, sweat and tears, the therapy, all the other things you're doing. What's the it? What's where are you now that's different or better, that's worth it. 

Renee [00:15:58] Just in the last year, I've seen a change in how I choose to deal with things that are upsetting. You know, I used to be very much a flight person. So I just ran away from everything, either in my head or physically. And now I recognize that. And I'm trying to do things differently. And being able to kind of take a beat and just let it sit and marinate a little bit and thoughtfully and calmly thinking through things without all of the emotion and triggers happening, kind of distancing myself from the situation in order to make a more informed reaction. 

Terry [00:16:48] To understand just how big of a change that sense of calm and control is for Renee, it helps to hear how she'd have reacted in the past. 

Renee [00:16:58] You know, I used to use alcohol a lot as a running-away mechanism, coping mechanism, and that didn't ever help anything. You know, it it just made me forget what I was feeling. But then the next time I happened, it was right back to where I was. So, now consciously making the choice, I know that I feel icky, and usually I would just go get a drink and just stopping myself from doing that and just letting it sit and having the sober mind to think about things through instead of just running from them. 

Terry [00:17:39] It's worth noting that since our mental and physical health are interdependent, Renee's healing also impacts her body. 

Renee [00:17:48] I mean, I have an autoimmune disease, and since I've been dealing with some of this this last year, I haven't had a flare up in over a year. I mean, just physically, that's the physical manifestation, is that I don't have symptoms for my rheumatoid arthritis. It's, you know, it's a matter of I've done some reading about, you know, trauma and how that they believe has a big factor in autoimmune diseases. And the fact that I'm not my my system, my body is not constantly in this hyper aware fight kind of mentality, my body is just calmer or my my system is just healthier. I mean, just a sense of calm and and relief, and not pain. 

Renee [00:18:43] And with that, we circle back to Renee's social media post. For anyone who needs to hear this. 

Renee [00:18:49] It's hard AF, but it's worth it. That's kind of just from my experience. It's not it's not easy. And it's like your analogy with the closet. You know, it's going to get real messy and real ugly first. But then the end result is just so powerful and so, confirming, I guess, that you have control and you can help yourself. And, you know, a lot of people dealing with depression, like you mentioned, feel alone and they might actually be alone because of their depression, either through self isolation or just life circumstances. But you even though it is great to have support of other people, you don't need that. You have the power to help yourself. And if you're willing to put in the hard work, it will benefit you in ways you don't even know are possible. 

Anita [00:20:02] So Terry, I was really, really impressed with Rene and it was really good to hear from someone who had been in that pit of depression and is now out and able to encourage people to know that it can and it will get better. Even though I think she was very honest and admitted that when she was in it, she's not sure she would have believed that herself. 

Terry [00:20:25] Right. And for me, it wasn't just that she was in it and got out of it, but that she's really putting out there that get the getting out requires our effort, you know, whether it's meds or therapy or any of the other tools that work for us, we have to use them. You know, we have to take the meds. We have to go to the therapy, we have to do the work, or it's a lot harder, if not impossible to get out of that pit. 

Anita [00:20:49] Right, right. Because depression, you know, sort of as a force of being, is so powerful. And you may need to marshal, you know, resources and support to fight it. But I think you're right. She's saying you have to fight it. You have to work hard for it, but that the hard work will absolutely pay off and it's absolutely worth it. 

Terry [00:21:09] It's an important message. I think we need to be reminded. I had this conversation with someone and said, think of physical therapy. You know, if you go to physical therapy and you do the exercises and you don't do them again until a week or two later when you go back to see the therapist, you know, you're you're not going to improve the way that you would if in between those sessions, you were doing the work. And Rene really embodies doing the work. And it's been hard. And she was dealing with really intense childhood trauma, and it has been really delightful and comforting and inspiring to watch her really come into her own and find peace and happiness in her life. 

Anita [00:21:45] Yeah. And I also feel like she did a great job of emphasizing the experience of when you, you're, you're moving towards recovery but you're definitely not there yet. And it's really, really that, that messy space then that messy nature of doing a mental health overhaul, you know, on yourself, even if you're working with a therapist and, and just sort of knowing that, that slog in between, you know, the time that you say, okay, I'm going to do something about this to the time that, like she said, she wouldn't even recognize herself.-her older self after all the work that she's done. But that in-between place is very messy. It's very hard. It's the slog. It's the like you said, the doing of the, you know, the exercises and physical therapy. It's it's doing the hard work. 

Anita [00:22:37] And so I really like that she, you know, she said the things that she said was helpful to her but emphasized how, how tough that work was in the in, in the, in between. 

Terry [00:22:49] I just want to double back to a line from that quote you read in the beginning, which is you got to resurrect the deep pain within you and give it a place to live that is not within your body. 

Anita [00:23:00] It's unpacking baggage, you know, things that that ended up in your, in your suitcase that's not yours or that you really don't need to keep dragging through the rest of your life. And that unpacking process is so important because we don't need to be carrying excess pain, excess trauma, any anything. We don't need to be carrying that into our future. 

Terry [00:23:21] Right. Thank you and thank you, Renee, for sharing with us once again. 

Anita [00:23:32] We truly hope that our podcast brings a little more understanding. Helps you better articulate and reflect on your own experience with depression, or better understand how to support someone else who is struggling. 

Terry [00:23:46] If this episode has been of comfort or value to you, know that there are hundreds of others like it in our archive, which you can easily find at our website. Giving voice to depression.com. And remember, if you are struggling, speak up even if it's hard. If someone else is struggling, take the time to listen.